The FRFR Option

[frannie01]

12 hours ago, Skybone said:

I umm-ed and ahh-ed about whether to go FRFR or not for ages, and came up with similar conclusions (without the maths bit though).

If you want to go FRFR for bass, then I would say that you should look at: 

https://barefacedbass.com/product-range/FR800.htm

 

Ok nice I’ll have a look

ill post any findings 

Cheers 

Edited February 20, 2020 by frannie01

[frannie01]

12 hours ago, ratman said:

Another example of 'you get what you pay for'. An 1x8" wedge costing £209 is not going to cut it for bass in a band. It might be ok for quiet bedroom use though.

To be honest my trace Elliot head plus  4x10 on top of the 1x15 are well-behind me these days and I have to carry my stuff around now no more road crew I’m afraid 

 

the smaller the better at my age 😁

Edited February 20, 2020 by frannie01

[uk_lefty]

6 hours ago, frannie01 said:

Ok Cool, I'm wondering how the bass will sound with the headrush...Plug your bass in and let me know 🙂 

I'll give it a go using a Boss GT10-B for amp sims. My real point though was he has this bit of kit yet the one time it would have been most useful and he decided not to use it! So he obviously doesn't have confidence in it for a pub gig. 

[Phil Starr]

5 hours ago, frannie01 said:

Ok Great I get some of what your saying but not all,But yes your right 12s would be a better bet I'm using 2 at the moment,in your opinion does the art deliver a true 800 watts then ?

 

 

Sorry I've missed something here, do you already have two of the Headrush 8's? If so you don't need to ask just try them out, it's very difficult sitting at a keyboard to judge how loud someone else's band are. If you are happy then it's all good. I'll do a separate post and ask some questions about what you are trying to achieve? OK keeping it simple two eights are going to be better than a single 10 for bass handling, all else being equal, they will be just about as good as a single 12  and because you have twice the power available the rest of the frequency range can be louder if that's what you need.

the ART 310 is rated at 400W continuous, 300W to the bass speaker and 100W to the horn driver. The specs make it fairly clear that this is limited to protect the speakers and the specs for RCF drivers are widely available. I doubt that the horn driver is really drawing more than 35W but it is normal in pro PA to use more power than you need to drive the tops as you want to avoid any chance of amp distortion which is both more noticeable and likely to destroy the driver. The only claim they make which is improbable is the 127dB which is a peak figure 6db higher than actual, but to be fair I can't think of a single major manufacturer that doesn't do this so it at least enables you to compare if they all use the same untruth 127db would cause immediate permanent hearing loss if it was on the floor in front of you so perhaps it's as well it can't do this.

 

5 hours ago, frannie01 said:

Hiya Thanks for your response

The reason for the FRFR should I get it right would solve so many problems....I tend to switch between several different basses.acoustic. electric. passive. active.I use a Zoom B3 for everything tuner compressor amp sims D.I  etc and have patches set up to deal with the different out puts on each instrument.I don't really need a traditional amp head as such any more all I want to be able to do is amplify the sound of the Zoom or whatever super cedes that in the future.plus having a speaker angled up toward you kind of makes sense to me.It is however all academic at the moment...

It's a good move, I use two RCF 310's for my duo, I sing as well and mix from on stage so it makes sense to have a single monitoring system and to be able to hear on stage what the audience hear. Not needing the on stage sound to reach the back of the room means we can reduce the sound levels which cleans everything up (less rubbish picked up by the vocal mics). I also use a single 310 for rehearsals with my full band sometimes and for open mics and jam sessions. So far a single RCF310 has been fine, if anything on the floor it is a bit bass heavy but it is designed to be on a pole so no surprise there. Even without my Zoom the sound is fine though I have active basses so I can tweak the sound at the bass. We also use a second pair of ART 310 mk3's for the PA for the duo which is fairly loud but still acoustic. there's no signs of any difficulty at all putting bass through the two 310's at room filling levels.

I wouldn't have chosen the RCF 310 if I wanted to cover every situation with a single speaker, I'd probably have gone for a 15 but I'd happily use a pair of 10's for any gig.

[BigRedX]

The "FRFR" option makes most sense for those of us whose bass sound is covered FoH by the PA rather than the bass rig.

Think about it.

When was the last time you saw a bass cab mic'd up? And if you did would you know 100% that it was the mic'd cab you were hearing or if it was just for show. Then if the bassist was using multiple cabs of different designs, in order to reproduce the sound FoH each different cab would require a mic on it.

And using a DI, anything taken from the amp will be before the power amp section, and usually the sound engineer will request a pre-EQ feed, so at best only the pre-amp section of the amp is going to affect the FoH sound, and most of the time it's probably only the input circuitry. So all those impressive looking all-valve heads are contributing almost nothing to the FoH bass sound.

So why waste time an money agonising over bass amps and cabs when most of the time only you are going to get the benefit, and on anything other than the smallest stages only if you are stood directly in front of them? If most of what you are hearing is coming from the monitors or in-ears which are fed from the same source as the FoH what is the point of a big and heavy bass rig?

[Silvia Bluejay]

8 hours ago, frannie01 said:

Unfortunately the sound man woman will usually concentrate on the obvious Voice kick drum snare guitars what have you and maybe you'll get some sub woofy bass in the wedge if your lucky ...

Not true. Even if the soundman/woman is not a bass player, they are trained to pay attention to all frequencies - that should include boosting the mid-frequencies (or reducing the other frequencies) in the bass spectrum in order to make it less boomy and better audible.

The reason why sound engineers usually have to dedicate more time to getting the highs and high-mids right is that they travel less well than bass frequencies. The latter usually need less PA help as their long waves make them ideal for being listened to from a distance rather than close by.

Edited February 20, 2020 by Silvia Bluejay
Grammar!

[jrixn1]

9 hours ago, frannie01 said:

I've got an older Genz Shuttle 9.0 and 2 x NYC 121s which are fine but having just got hold of the Zoom B3 I'd really just like to run the amp sims and fx from there.plus going from the p Bass to upright then 5 string or even fret less is a pain tweaking eq's and volume levels etc...I now have patches set up for all of these instruments.

 

8 hours ago, frannie01 said:

plus having a speaker angled up toward you kind of makes sense to me.

 

I'm also doubling and my previous setup was quite similar: a Zoom into a Genz Benz Shuttle 9.2 into one or two Barefaced cabs.  

The wedge format of a powered speaker is really great, and one of the reasons I'm glad I switched over from separates.

The powered speaker is slightly heavier (18kg) than any other single component of a separates system, but the handle placement is really good so overall I prefer hauling it vs my previous setup.

Also I pocketed some money by switching, as an RCF 732A is about £650 new whereas my separates rig was sold for about £1000 used.

I think for your situation, I'd avoid any 8" or 10" unit and go for a quality 12" or 15" (I see RCF or QSC most often recommended).  Some online retailers (e.g. gear4music) have a generous returns policy (30 days instead of the 14-day statutory requirement) so that might be long enough to decide if the new setup works in your situation.

 

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

2 hours ago, Silvia Bluejay said:

The reason why sound engineers usually have to dedicate more time to getting the highs and high-mids right is that they travel less well than bass frequencies. The latter usually need less PA help as their long waves make them ideal for being listened to from a distance rather than close by.

A bit OT, but since you brought it up... It's not unusual for the low end of any sub or low frequency speaker to be hard to hear when standing close to it. Reflections off nearby walls and the ceiling create low frequency null zones. If you're standing in one of those null zones the bass will disappear. When you move away from the null zone the true output of the cab will be heard.  This effect gave rise to the myth of wave propagation, that it takes a minimum distance from a source for the bass wave to be heard. But if that was true headphones wouldn't work, nor would car subwoofers.

[Silvia Bluejay]

Yup that's very true as well. And in some places the bass is boomy no matter what you do to it on or off the PA! I imagine car subwoofers have a lot of travel built in that helps with us hearing the bass properly, and headphones - well, they need to be good, or you won't hear the bass.

Guitars, though, don't get me started on them... 😉

[frannie01]

4 hours ago, uk_lefty said:

I'll give it a go using a Boss GT10-B for amp sims. My real point though was he has this bit of kit yet the one time it would have been most useful and he decided not to use it! So he obviously doesn't have confidence in it for a pub gig. 

Ok that’s handy to know,I’d like  to know

1) how transparent the sound is with the bass no amp sims 

2) how it sounds with the sims added.

 

i realise every instrument responds differently just like to get an impression 

Thanks 

Edited February 20, 2020 by frannie01

[frannie01]

1 hour ago, jrixn1 said:

 

 

I'm also doubling and my previous setup was quite similar: a Zoom into a Genz Benz Shuttle 9.2 into one or two Barefaced cabs.  

The wedge format of a powered speaker is really great, and one of the reasons I'm glad I switched over from separates.

The powered speaker is slightly heavier (18kg) than any other single component of a separates system, but the handle placement is really good so overall I prefer hauling it vs my previous setup.

Also I pocketed some money by switching, as an RCF 732A is about £650 new whereas my separates rig was sold for about £1000 used.

I think for your situation, I'd avoid any 8" or 10" unit and go for a quality 12" or 15" (I see RCF or QSC most often recommended).  Some online retailers (e.g. gear4music) have a generous returns policy (30 days instead of the 14-day statutory requirement) so that might be long enough to decide if the new setup works in your situation.

 

Yes that all makes , sense apart from the 15s ( just lazy I guess )😁 although for touring purposes id definitely consider it ! 

Listen that’s been most helpful 

much appreciated

thanks 

 

 

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

2 hours ago, Silvia Bluejay said:

 I imagine car subwoofers have a lot of travel built in that helps with us hearing the bass properly.

Cars get a major bass response boost from Cabin Gain, also known as Pressure Vessel gain. So do headphones. It's the reason why they give good bass when tight to the ears but it disappears when they're pulled away.

[Jack]

On 20/02/2020 at 10:20, Silvia Bluejay said:

Not true. Even if the soundman/woman is not a bass player, they are trained to pay attention to all frequencies

We play very different venues.

[frannie01]

On 20/02/2020 at 02:55, frannie01 said:

 

Nice one succinctly put.I tried the same idea many years ago......all the frequency controls went on my amp but it stlll powered up so I just used the 3 band on my music man to get the tone i needed. I liked it and have been achieving the same results by going directly into the fx return and by passing the pre amp occasionally.My Genz has given me a certain amount of transparency but FRFR sounds like the way forward for me Cheers 

IVe also discovered this not quite powerful enough for the bigger gigs but .....there’s hope !

Edited February 23, 2020 by frannie01

[frannie01]

On 20/02/2020 at 11:58, jrixn1 said:

 

 

I'm also doubling and my previous setup was quite similar: a Zoom into a Genz Benz Shuttle 9.2 into one or two Barefaced cabs.  

The wedge format of a powered speaker is really great, and one of the reasons I'm glad I switched over from separates.

The powered speaker is slightly heavier (18kg) than any other single component of a separates system, but the handle placement is really good so overall I prefer hauling it vs my previous setup.

Also I pocketed some money by switching, as an RCF 732A is about £650 new whereas my separates rig was sold for about £1000 used.

I think for your situation, I'd avoid any 8" or 10" unit and go for a quality 12" or 15" (I see RCF or QSC most often recommended).  Some online retailers (e.g. gear4music) have a generous returns policy (30 days instead of the 14-day statutory requirement) so that might be long enough to decide if the new setup works in your situation.

 

Hi Thanks for all the info much appreciated!!

[frannie01]

Found this on you tube can’t wait for a more powerful version 

[ratman]

Want more power? How about one of these 600W power amps. I have one, I love it.... They also do a 1000W version

 

https://www.guitarsoundsystems.com/gss-baby-sumo-ampxlite-bass-guitar-power-amp-c2x21844846

 

[Frank Blank]

On 20/02/2020 at 12:58, frannie01 said:

Ok that’s handy to know,I’d like  to know

1) how transparent the sound is with the bass no amp sims 

2) how it sounds with the sims added.

 

i realise every instrument responds differently just like to get an impression 

Thanks 

I play through a HX Stomp into a QSC K12.2, much as I like playing around with the Stomp I mainly use it for a touch of compression and really small eq tweaks. What always surprises me is just how superb the basses sound plugged directly into the QSC. I spend decades looking for bass amps that reproduced the sound of the bass without adding or subtracting any colour. Now I realise I’m almost certainly an exception here but when I buy a bass, second hand or new, I don’t amplify it, I listen to it acoustically, when I like a bass and subsequently buy it, that acoustic sound is what I’m looking for when amplified, uncoloured, just (obviously) louder! The QSC is the only amplification solution that has ever given me this. I use The Stomps sims sometimes with my short scale fretless simply to get a tone near to that of an upright bass but again I find it difficult to beat the sound that I get directly plugged in. The Stomp has so many variables to tweak that I’ve barely scratched the surface but then the quality of the sounds just plugging in the basses directly is so good I’m in no hurry!

[ratman]

A big soul band I was in for a few years used a regular PA company. On the rare occasions I didn't have a bass rig for the night the PA guys would give me a QSC monitor (2x12 I think) and send my bass signal through an auxillary, it always sounded stunning. I don't know exactly which model wedge it was but I remember them saying 'that's what you get for a couple of grand'. And that would have been the best part of 20 years ago. I remember wishing I had the money for one back then.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

It wasn't QSC, they didn't make speakers 20 years ago. Maybe one of those other three letter companies, like JBL or EAW.

[Paul S]

I'm reading all this with interest, I must say, if not with understanding  

Regarding the RCF range, apart from cost what is the difference between the Art 712-A Mk IV and the Art 732-A MkIV? 

 

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

Different drivers, different cabinets. different crossover frequency.

[Paul S]

9 minutes ago, Bill Fitzmaurice said:

Different drivers, different cabinets. different crossover frequency.

The 732 being better for bass, I assume?

[jrixn1]

The 712 crossover is at 1600Hz, whereas the 732 is at 700Hz, due to an upgraded compression driver in the 732.  My layman understanding is the 12" woofer in the 732 now has an "easier" job, as it only has to go up to 700Hz, and therefore is able to do that job "better".  Please, someone correct me if I'm talking rubbish.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

The load on a woofer at 1600Hz is roughly 1/16th what it is at 100Hz, so dropping the crossover to 700Hz won't make an appreciable difference where that's concerned. The midrange dispersion angle of a twelve at 1600Hz is roughly half what it is at 700Hz, so from that standpoint the lower crossover is highly advantageous. They can only do that by using a compression driver capable of going to 700Hz.