EU artists will need a VISA to perform in UK from 2021

[Al Krow]

Turkey has just agreed to visa free travel for six European countries including the UK (I think announced yesterday). Clearly don't have to be part of the EU to agree such things! 

[fretmeister]

Just read it will be £244 per band member / crew / driver etc for each visa for EU bands to play here.

 

Edited February 20, 2020 by fretmeister

[Al Krow]

5 minutes ago, fretmeister said:

Just read it will be £244 per band member / crew / driver etc for each visa for EU bands to play here.

 

Ok, that's painful. 

[Powertripper]

3 hours ago, ambient said:

 

Then you really have no idea. I don't mean to be rude, but many artists play over here quite independently, they have no financial backing from anyone, and are lucky to draw even. They jump on Eurostar, travel to London, stay at friend's homes. They invariably don't make their living from it, so it wouldn't be tax deductible, merely an expense that will deter them.  I've played several times in Europe as a solo artist. I also did a talk at the Royal College of Music in Stockholm before Christmas. In future I will require a visa for those, which will make the cost prohibitive.

Please excuse me on that front - I hadn't really considered solo operations and was talking about a general band perspective.

[skankdelvar]

The cost of £244 per head relates specifically to the 12 month visa. A fiver a week doesn't sound unreasonable to me.

However, there's another way round this for the gigging EU musician. For stays of less than three months there's the Tier 5 (Temporary Worker - Creative and Sporting) concession the conditions of which are:

Quote

You can enter the UK without applying for a visa in advance if you:

* have a valid Tier 5 (Temporary Worker - Creative and Sporting) certificate of sponsorship

* are coming to work in the UK for 3 months or less

* do not normally need a visa to enter the UK as a visitor

 - You must still meet the Tier 5 (Temporary Worker - Creative and Sporting) visa eligibility criteria.

 

Edited February 20, 2020 by skankdelvar

[bigjohn]

1 hour ago, Al Krow said:

Turkey has just agreed to visa free travel for six European countries including the UK (I think announced yesterday). Clearly don't have to be part of the EU to agree such things! 

That's the thing... this the UK saying that going forwards, this is what non UK artists will have to pay and do to come here. As part of the EU, this would have contravened the FoM regulations. So you've got this the wrong way around... 

What a lot of people don't realise is how touring for all bands works when it's properly organised with crews etc. Having to organise and pay for visas will not only stop a lot of touring bands coming here, but when reciprocated, which it will be, will stop a lot of UK bands going to the EU, which frankly, is where a lot of the money is that pays for UK dates when the whole tour is considered. It's not just band members that will need visas, it's everyone on the tour.

It's not just an EU visa either. A visa to work in France does mean you can work in Spain or Germany etc.  

We're playing a festival in Greece this year. It's already said it's the last one. Visas for 18 bands is too much for the organisers to cope with. 

We've become a provincial little island over night. 

 

Edited February 20, 2020 by bigjohn

[ambient]

2 minutes ago, skankdelvar said:

The cost of £244 per head relates specifically to the 12 month visa. A fiver a week doesn't sound unreasonable to me.

However, there's another way round this for the gigging EU musician. For stays of less than three months there's the Tier 5 (Temporary Worker - Creative and Sporting) concession the conditions of which are:

 

The website is very contradictory. If you click on the certificate of sponsorship on that website, it takes you to the tier 5 visa, for which there’s a £244 fee. I agree £5 a week isn’t a lot, but most people travel to the UK just for a week or so, to do a few gigs. This will be on top of all the other new costs; VAT payable upfront on merchandise, health insurance, the cost of a carnet. 
 

What will be the real disaster is the requirement for the organiser to be licensed.

[ambient]

It’s going to have an affect all across the arts. Imagine the cost for an orchestra or a ballet company. It’s going to affect academia too, which really relies on people travelling about, sharing ideas and their work. We will become a backwater.

[Woodwind]

6 hours ago, peteb said:

The answer is yes they do, which is why you don't see too many touring at club level unless they have a  bit of organisational backing or money behind them. 

The other factor is that you generally don't make money from touring the UK at club level, whereas you do in Europe. It is very worrying for some of my pro mates who are wondering how they are going to make a living. 

Quoting this before having finished the thread so apologies of any thematic repeats etc.

The few times I've been to Europe musically or theatrically Ie in a professional capacity where a visa will now be required won't be situations where a visa will be granted.

Fringe, small scale, club level, start up, etc etc venues, artists, bands & performers won't get visa's granted.

 

The American performers I've played with here haven't come with a visa they've turbed up on "holiday" and borrowed everything they need.

Payment is cash and just goes into the "holiday" kitty.

This will be the same situation now for Eu artists coming here and be extension us going over to mainland European.

Exactly as you say PeteB club level gigs in mainland Europe were financially viable, perhaps even moreso than in the UK. This simply will not be the case from 2021 onwards

[bigjohn]

 

18 minutes ago, skankdelvar said:

The cost of £244 per head relates specifically to the 12 month visa. A fiver a week doesn't sound unreasonable to me.

So a band on tour, with techs and wags. Maybe 10-15 people. Coming to the UK as part of a European tour and playing 5 gigs over a 2 week period to audiences of 500 with a margin of about £100-£200 per night if they're lucky.  Don't forget the promoter needs to be paid too. 

You think £2.5-£4k doesn't sound unreasonable? Yeah. Right on.

Those sort of bands will just swerve the UK entirely.  

 

 

Edited February 20, 2020 by bigjohn

[ambient]

3 minutes ago, Woodwind said:

Quoting this before having finished the thread so apologies of any thematic repeats etc.

The few times I've been to Europe musically or theatrically Ie in a professional capacity where a visa will now be required won't be situations where a visa will be granted.

Fringe, small scale, club level, start up, etc etc venues, artists, bands & performers won't get visa's granted.

 

The American performers I've played with here haven't come with a visa they've turbed up on "holiday" and borrowed everything they need.

Payment is cash and just goes into the "holiday" kitty.

This will be the same situation now for Eu artists coming here and be extension us going over to mainland European.

Exactly as you say PeteB club level gigs in mainland Europe were financially viable, perhaps even moreso than in the UK. This simply will not be the case from 2021 onwards

I didn’t realise that Thomas, though I guess it’s because most organisers aren’t officially licensed, which they need to be to issue sponsorship certificates?

[bigjohn]

5 hours ago, Al Krow said:

I completely get the concern, but I think until the visa regime (cost and visa duration and whether it's happening at all) is clear it's a little too early to start panicking?

It was clear the moment that leaving the EU and not being parf of EU FoM was mooted. 

You'll need a visa to work over there. That's that. And Non UK citizens will need a visa to work here. That's what Brexit means for people who work in different countries. Simple as that. 

The cost and hassle of which will mean less of it goes on. 

Edited February 20, 2020 by bigjohn

[Owen]

As I said - sux. All of it. I would not trust the present government to organise filling a bath let alone what they aspire to. Even IDS is wary of them. You know it is bad when IDS is saying "people, hang on a bit".

Edited February 20, 2020 by owen

[skankdelvar]

10 minutes ago, bigjohn said:

 

So a band on tour, with techs and wags. Maybe 10-15 people. Coming to the UK as part of a European tour and playing 5 gigs over a 2 week period to audiences of 500 with a margin of about £100-£200 per night if they're lucky.  Don't forget the promoter needs to be paid too. 

You think £2.5-£4k doesn't sound unreasonable? Yeah. Right on.

Those sort of bands will just swerve the UK entirely.  

A band coming here for 2 weeks would presumably apply for the shorter, three month Tier 5 (Temporary Worker - Creative and Sporting) Concession I detailed in the post you quoted. 

But of course, yes, a 10-15 person touring party expecting to make a whacking margin of a whole £200 a gig which applied for a year's visa for the purposes of doing 5 dates over 2 weeks would be out of pocket by a fair bit and serve them right for not doing their homework.

Of course, the WAG's you mention wouldn't have to pay for a temporary worker's visa so that would save a few bob.

[Woodwind]

I haven't read the thing, is it £244 for an annual EU visa or £244 for each EU country you work in?

[bigjohn]

2 minutes ago, skankdelvar said:

A band coming here for 2 weeks would presumably apply for the shorter, three month Tier 5 (Temporary Worker - Creative and Sporting) Concession I detailed in the post you quoted. 

But of course, yes, a 10-15 person touring party expecting to make a whacking margin of a whole £200 a gig which applied for a year's visa for the purposes of doing 5 dates over 2 weeks would be out of pocket by a fair bit and serve them right for not doing their homework.

Of course, the WAG's you mention wouldn't have to pay for a temporary worker's visa so that would save a few bob.

They do come now. They won't come any more. No matter how you dress it up. 

[skankdelvar]

Just now, Woodwind said:

I haven't read the thing, is it £244 for an annual EU visa or £244 for each EU country you work in?

It's £244 to work in the UK for a year. No one seems to know how much the EU might charge but it would probably be the same as applies to US and other 'third country' artists.

Of course, it's possible that something like this might be sorted out in discussions over the next year or so. 

[bigjohn]

2 minutes ago, Woodwind said:

I haven't read the thing, is it £244 for an annual EU visa or £244 for each EU country you work in?

No, it's for workers coming to the UK. It would cost a lot more than £244 to get visas to work in each of the countries in the EU. 

[bigjohn]

6 minutes ago, skankdelvar said:

It's £244 to work in the UK for a year. No one seems to know how much the EU might charge but it would probably be the same as applies to US and other 'third country' artists.

Of course, it's possible that something like this might be sorted out in discussions over the next year or so. 

As far as I know, the EU don't charge for visas. It's up to each member state how much they charge for non EU citizens temp working visas. 

Also don't forget it's not just the charges and the visas. Somebody has to do that. The admin. Somebody is getting paid. Somebody is paying for it. 

Either that or things just don't happen. 

And it won't be sorted out in the discussions barring the UK doing a complete turnaround over FoM. That's essentially what we're talking about. There's no way the the EU are gonna go, "oh yeah, come over, do what you like with no visas". 

 

 

Edited February 20, 2020 by bigjohn

[peteb]

3 minutes ago, bigjohn said:

As far as I know, the EU don't charge for visas. It's up to each member state how much they charge for non EU citizens temp working visas. 

Also don't forget it's not just the charges and the visas. Somebody has to do that. The admin. Somebody is getting paid. Somebody is paying for it. 

The real issue (apart from the cost) is will a UK band be able to get the necessary visas at short notice to play five dates in 200 capacity clubs over seven days across Holland, Belgium and northern France when there is no reason why an Italian band couldn't do those gigs. 

[ambient]

1 minute ago, peteb said:

The real issue (apart from the cost) is will a UK band be able to get the necessary visas at short notice to play five dates in 200 capacity clubs over seven days across Holland, Belgium and northern France when there is no reason why an Italian band couldn't do those gigs. 

That’s exactly it. I’m already hearing about airlines hiring people with passports from the remaining 27 EU countries, over UK passport holders.

With regard to artists coming here, both WOMAD and the Edinburgh literature festival have had problems with people invited to perform having their visa applications turned down. Academics coming over to conference have suffered too. 

[Al Krow]

On 21/02/2020 at 00:04, bigjohn said:

And it won't be sorted out in the discussions barring the UK doing a complete turnaround over FoM. 

That ain't going to happen.

If it's a consequence of FoM coming to an end, then so be it. Sometimes we have to live with what our fellow countrymen vote for - it's called democracy. There are going to be winners and losers from the changes to visa / immigration laws, but from what @peteb is saying there aren't a vast number of EU musos coming over here to play anyway 'cos there's no money in it.

And as @Lozz196 rightly said earlier in thread, UK bands managed to get across to Europe prior to FoM and before we all became marmalade sandwiches. 

Btw ignore @skankdelvar (even if he and I appear to be on the same side of the argument on this one) he's obviously having a grump which, when you get to our age, we're all entitled to do once in a while! 😁

Edited August 14, 2020 by Dad3353

[bigjohn]

4 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

If it's a consequence of FoM coming to an end, then so be it. Sometimes we have to live with what our fellow countrymen vote for - it's called democracy. There are going to be winners and losers from the changes to visa / immigration laws...

Aye, que sara sara. 

What annoys me though is people saying "oh it'll be alright" and "you never know what will happen" etc etc when specific problems and drawbacks are pointed out. 

We've **** the bed in a lot of ways. Now we get to lie in it. 

 about Mr Delvar. He can be a mean old bugger. I spotted that some time back

 

Edited February 20, 2020 by bigjohn

[Al Krow]

1 minute ago, bigjohn said:

Aye, que sara sara. 

What annoys me though is people saying "oh it'll be alright" and "you never know what will happen" etc etc. 

We've **** the bed. Now we get to lie in it. 

Can't argue with that!

[ambient]

2 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

That ain't going to happen.

If it's a consequence of FoM coming to an end, then so be it. Sometimes we have to live with what our fellow countrymen vote for - it's called democracy. There are going to be winners and losers from the changes to visa / immigration laws, but from what @peteb is saying there aren't a vast number of EU musos coming over here to play anyway 'cos there's no money in it.

And as @Lozz196 rightly said earlier in thread, UK bands managed to get across to Europe prior to FoM and before we all became snowflakes. 

Btw ignore @skankdelvar (even if he and I appear to be on the same side of the argument on this one) he's obviously having a grump which, when you get to our age, we're all entitled to do once in a while! 😁

The music business has changed massively since the 1960s. The additional costs will prohibit travelling to play; both us going to Europe, and them coming here.