EU artists will need a VISA to perform in UK from 2021

[RedVee]

3 minutes ago, ambient said:

It’s not just musicians, it’s every part of the artistic and creative industry. It’s also preventing us from going there. I’ve played over there as a solo experimental artist several times, I’ve also done academic work there through my PhD, that too will be affected.

But it also goes to protect home grown musicians and bands.If they don't come then that means more work and more money in your back pocket for local bands. I don't understand why everyone is getting so worried, the vast majority of musicians and bands make the majority of their dough over here and not in Europe. I just wish something similar could be done with football players from Europe, as I am all for promoting local talent above anything else.

[DoubleOhStephan]

27 minutes ago, ambient said:

Do you write for the Daily Mail?

Now now, we must strive to attack the argument, not the man. 

29 minutes ago, ambient said:

Most countries have adopted the EU’s very strict food standards, the reason being, they don’t want poorly produced foodstuffs. 

Less red tape means increased efficiency, not lower standards. 

Its another excellent reason why the EU will be too expensive and ultimately collapse, they're too inefficient, so too slow and too expensive. 

34 minutes ago, ambient said:

What happens to our farmers and food producers whilst we’re importing cheap American stuff?

I expect most with diversify, lots are already doing that. Prehaps specialist breeds or something? 

[Doctor J]

38 minutes ago, RedVee said:

I hope that happens,then we can all return to pre 1975 where bands toured Europe without any problems..........Happy Days ahead Peeps!

And the three-day week?

[Cuzzie]

Read all comments on this subject, and this is a slight aside as it’s a different work sector (healthcare I am talking about), but I am not sure how much most people know what a PITA visa applications are and how expensive they are.

The conditions for it are rigorous (rightly so) but massively rigid. We had a really good chap who we wanted to keep on, but HR were dragging their feet, and there was a job to be created for this guy. He had to take another job and the Visa is very specific for the job and location he had to do. He couldn’t just take that job and then come back to this one in a few months as it would mean a whole new visa application costing thousands each time and had to uproot family etc.

This is just moving jobs between cities in the same country, it will be so much more painful overall for everyone.

Back to music, smaller touring artists often have musicians for their band stationed in Europe for when they come to play. The musician stationed in U.K. would usually be fine to play the european leg, is this going to lead to them not getting the work, or the hassle of having multiple musicians stationed in different countries.

Its a nightmare, and yes many people will be affected

[ambient]

5 hours ago, RedVee said:

But it also goes to protect home grown musicians and bands.If they don't come then that means more work and more money in your back pocket for local bands. I don't understand why everyone is getting so worried, the vast majority of musicians and bands make the majority of their dough over here and not in Europe. I just wish something similar could be done with football players from Europe, as I am all for promoting local talent above anything else.

You’re missing the point. It’s not just the monetary side. Art itself has intrinsic value, which is fostered and enhanced by collaboration with people. That’s why travel is vital for academic artistic practice.

Edited February 21, 2020 by ambient

[ambient]

3 minutes ago, Cuzzie said:

Read all comments on this subject, and this is a slight aside as it’s a different work sector (healthcare I am talking about), but I am not sure how much most people know what a PITA visa applications are and how expensive they are.

The conditions for it are rigorous (rightly so) but massively rigid. We had a really good chap who we wanted to keep on, but HR were dragging their feet, and there was a job to be created for this guy. He had to take another job and the Visa is very specific for the job and location he had to do. He couldn’t just take that job and then come back to this one in a few months as it would mean a whole new visa application costing thousands each time and had to uproot family etc.

This is just moving jobs between cities in the same country, it will be so much more painful overall for everyone.

Back to music, smaller touring artists often have musicians for their band stationed in Europe for when they come to play. The musician stationed in U.K. would usually be fine to play the european leg, is this going to lead to them not getting the work, or the hassle of having multiple musicians stationed in different countries.

Its a nightmare, and yes many people will be affected

I should imagine that people coming to Europe from the US will need to get another visa for their European crew, if they’re bothered to come to this backwater.

[Cuzzie]

3 minutes ago, ambient said:

I should imagine that people coming to Europe from the US will need to get another visa for their European crew, if they’re bothered to come to this backwater.

Maybe yes if that’s the only way, but your UK based musician  who would normally tour with the artist, is possibly frozen out, and like you say if they previously had a visa to enter Europe, but now need one for Europe and U.K., doesn’t make sense for them, so not only does he/she not get the european gigs, but doesn’t get the U.K. ones either.

[RedVee]

29 minutes ago, ambient said:

You’re missing the point. It’s not just the monetary side. Art itself has intrinsic value, which is fostered by collaboration with people. That’s why travel is vital for academic artistic practice.

I would say the majority would be doing it for the money over academic artistic practice.

[ambient]

Just now, RedVee said:

I would say the majority would be doing it for the money over academic artistic practice.

Many for the money, many because they enjoy it, many for academic reasons, it depends on the specific field. The point is, whatever their reason, they’re going to run up against obstacles. As was said earlier on this thread, the event that someone is attending has to be by a licensed promoter or organiser. The majority of the tens of thousands of events that take place are independent, so a visa won’t be issued.

A friend of mine is currently on a solo tour of Italy, he’s doing a few gigs, and some bass masterclasses. It probably wouldn’t have happened with all the extra expenses.

[Al Krow]

1 hour ago, Doctor J said:

And the three-day week?

That would be nice. I understand Finland are about to bring that in 😉

[bigjohn]

1 hour ago, DoubleOhStephan said:

Less red tape means increased efficiency, not lower standards. 

Its another excellent reason why the EU will be too expensive and ultimately collapse, they're too inefficient, so too slow and too expensive. 

No, standards are standards. You don't increase efficiency by removing standards, in fact, in a globalised economy, the opposite is true. 

Call them red tape if you like, but it's a semantic and ultimately flawed, essentially ideological argument which is anti-globalist and inherently small time.  

If you want an example of how standards and efficiency work, think of the decimal system vs imperial. Removing standards is backward. 

Funny how even the yanks now provide data and use the decimal in engineering (and have done for decades since learning some fairly horrific lessons during the Apollo Program)  despite it not being "their" standard. And funny how Trump decries the "Brussels effect" in the same way. 

 

 

Edited February 21, 2020 by bigjohn

[DoubleOhStephan]

5 minutes ago, bigjohn said:

You don't increase efficiency by removing removing standards, in fact, in a globalised economy, the opposite is true.

As I said, this isn't removing or reducing standards. The efficiency is made by reducing bureaucracy and all costs associated with that. 

Its exactly the same principle as your complaint about visas. An increase in red tape (special visas) means increased bureaucracy (to process the paperwork), meaning increased costs and slower turnaround time. Remove the special visas and you instantly reduce the cost of bureaucracy. 

15 minutes ago, bigjohn said:

Call them red tape if you like, but it's semantic and an ultimately flawed and essentially ideological argument which is anti-globalist and inherently small time.  

It may be semantic and I'm sure it's fundamentally flawed, we are talking about predicting the future which is fundamentally flawed concept. 

I don't think it's anti-globalist, I've been trying to describe a global trade network between the UK, US & Asia. 

[Leonard Smalls]

1 hour ago, DoubleOhStephan said:

The efficiency is made by reducing bureaucracy and all costs associated with that.

While any business would welcome a reduction in red tape and bureaucracy I don't believe that the current UK government can be trusted to do that...

Frinstance, I've recently been lumbered with a number of surveys I'm legally bound to fill in for the Office of National Statistics (on pain of a £5k fine). What's deeply annoying is that I also have to provide exactly the same info to another branch of government (HMRC), just in a different format.

Not only that, but another new law has just appeared where any business storing data on a computer or even just having cctv has to pay a fee of up to £2900 to the Information Commissioners office... 

Neither of these are likely to help businesses cope with the rest of the "opportunities" that the country has democratically foisted on them!

[ambient]

1 hour ago, DoubleOhStephan said:

As I said, this isn't removing or reducing standards. The efficiency is made by reducing bureaucracy and all costs associated with that. 

Its exactly the same principle as your complaint about visas. An increase in red tape (special visas) means increased bureaucracy (to process the paperwork), meaning increased costs and slower turnaround time. Remove the special visas and you instantly reduce the cost of bureaucracy. 

It may be semantic and I'm sure it's fundamentally flawed, we are talking about predicting the future which is fundamentally flawed concept. 

I don't think it's anti-globalist, I've been trying to describe a global trade network between the UK, US & Asia. 

Do you think trading with America or the Far East is a particularly good idea, bearing in mind the distances involved and the need to cut down on unnecessary transportation?

You also didn’t answer my earlier question when  I asked what you thought our farmers would do when our market is flooded with American cheap food.

[DoubleOhStephan]

2 minutes ago, ambient said:

Do you think trading with America or the Far East is a particularly good idea, bearing in mind the distances involved and the need to cut down on unnecessary transportation?

Yes

3 minutes ago, ambient said:

You also didn’t answer my earlier question when  I asked what you thought our farmers would do when our market is flooded with American cheap food.

I did... 

3 hours ago, DoubleOhStephan said:

4 hours ago, ambient said:

What happens to our farmers and food producers whilst we’re importing cheap American stuff?

I expect most with diversify, lots are already doing that. Prehaps specialist breeds or something? 

 

[bigjohn]

1 hour ago, DoubleOhStephan said:

As I said, this isn't removing or reducing standards. The efficiency is made by reducing bureaucracy and all costs associated with that. 

You do realise that this thread is about Brexit causing a specific increase in bureaucracy and costs for performance artists?

You are aware, this is directly caused by the removal of the standard that we know as Freedom of Movement?

[lowdown]

5 hours ago, ambient said:

It’s not just musicians, it’s every part of the artistic and creative industry. It’s also preventing us from going there. I’ve played over there as a solo experimental artist several times, I’ve also done academic work there through my PhD, that too will be affected.

 

Just my opinion, view and experience...

Although recently retired as a full time Bassist, I had previously worked on dozens of resident shows, theatre tours and concerts with touring acts in the EU since the mid 70's (some at a minutes notice). There were no visas or ATA Carnet forms needed, or similar issues of that kind. Sometimes, just turning up at airports or Waterloo station with a suitcase and Bass to collect tickets. It was as easy as arriving for shows/tours and gigs in the UK. But unfortunately, the simplicity of working as a UK Musician in the EU, looks like it is coming to an end.

Before that, it wasn't as plain sailing as some make out. It was littered with Visa applications (some a pain in the derrière), Carnet documents and procedure, bonds and the occasional sponsorship (different Countries had different criteria and requirements). Although, it was usually organised by UK based fixers and agents in advance (characters like Jack Fallon of Cana Variety Agency - Ironically, a Canadian. There were plenty of others, names escape me at the moment).

But still, it didn't stop you getting hold ups, grief, cases/gear being opened up and then poked about at various European borders. It was usually, not a pleasant experience and always defiantly, time-consuming. Buying, selling, or replacing equipment was always a hassle with customs and the Carnet forms. A lot of the younger musicians in this field are going to miss the benefits and ease of Freedom of Movement across (EU) Europe. Maybe even resulting in levels of work dropping for UK Musicians wanting to work over there, due to the extra work and cost involved.

Howard Goodall wrote an interesting piece about the possible fall out...

http://www.howardgoodall.co.uk/articles-press-etc/the-musicians-passport

 

Edited February 21, 2020 by lowdown

[ambient]

5 minutes ago, bigjohn said:

You do realise that this thread is about Brexit causing a specific increase in bureaucracy and costs for performance artists?

You are aware, this is directly caused by the removal of the standard that we know as Freedom of Movement?

The ending of FoM is only for us too.

[Al Krow]

19 minutes ago, ambient said:

Do you think trading with America or the Far East is a particularly good idea, bearing in mind the distances involved and the need to cut down on unnecessary transportation?

Exactly the same point should be made about flying around Europe to play gigs or EU musos coming to the UK. Using local artists is good for the environment. 

[ambient]

1 minute ago, Al Krow said:

Exactly the same point should be made about flying around Europe to play gigs or EU musos coming to the UK. Using local artists is good for the environment. 

I travel by train 😁. Most people I know do, it’s cheaper, easier, they don’t make a fuss about gear, and it’s green.

[Rich]

5 hours ago, merello said:

I wish all my English Brothers well, they always get what they vote for.

I didn't.

[Al Krow]

3 minutes ago, ambient said:

I travel by train 😁. Most people I know do, it’s cheaper, easier, they don’t make a fuss about gear, and it’s green.

So how long does a return trip by train to Germany take? I find it hard to believe it's going to be cheaper than Easy Jet? Another factor to consider if this is boiling down to economics.

[DoubleOhStephan]

12 minutes ago, bigjohn said:

You do realise that this thread is about Brexit causing a specific increase in bureaucracy and costs for performance artists?

Yes, and as I've said, this appears to me to be a short term problem. 

12 minutes ago, bigjohn said:

You are aware, this is directly caused by the removal of the standard that we know as Freedom of Movement?

It's not a removal, you're free to go wherever you like. If people in the EU would like to work in the UK, they can, that's absolutely fine, they'll just need to get a visa first. 

[bigjohn]

3 minutes ago, DoubleOhStephan said:

Yes, and as I've said, this appears to me to be a short term problem. 

It's not a removal, you're free to go wherever you like. If people in the EU would like to work in the UK, they can, that's absolutely fine, they'll just need to get a visa first. 

If you don’t mind... what about the rest of that don’t live in your fantasy world and have to deal with reality rather than what you think will happen? 
 

and yes, it’s quite clearly a removal. It’s the removal of the right to live and work in the EU. From now on, we won’t have the right, we will have to ask permission. 
 

[pete.young]

I'd just like to express my admiration for the mods willingness to keep this compelling thread alive despite it sailing pretty close to the wind a few times.