EU artists will need a VISA to perform in UK from 2021

[ambient]

I wonder if our perception of working in the arts has a bearing in our reaction to this, ie, it not being a ‘proper’ job?

I’m pretty sure there would uproar if the government introduced something that impacted the construction industry, which employs a similar number of people, and raises a similar amount for the country’s economy.

[RedVee]

Lets put this into perspective, The EU are always  going to consider it more important losing British fishing waters over losing artistic talent from the UK. 

[DoubleOhStephan]

1 minute ago, ambient said:

I wonder if our perception of working in the arts has a bearing in our reaction to this, ie, it not being a ‘proper’ job?

Which reaction are you referring to, there have been a variety?

2 minutes ago, ambient said:

I’m pretty sure there would uproar if the government introduced something that impacted the construction industry, which employs a similar number of people, and raises a similar amount for the country’s economy.

What if the EU introduced regulations that impacted the construction industry?

[bigjohn]

23 minutes ago, DoubleOhStephan said:

What if the EU introduced regulations that impacted the construction industry?

Then if we were still members and our democratically elected representatives thought that the regulations were not in the UKs interest, then they could have been vetoed. 

BTW. The whole fishing rights thing is a complete red herring. The idea that the fishing industry has been decimated by the the EU is a fallacy. As usual with the UK, it has far more to do with UK government policy, which was to privatise fishing rights, meaning foreign boats bought and buy licences to fish what should be, under EU rules, UK catch. And also by the way, without complete change in this regard and a pay out of large compensation to the rights holders (some of whom are rich UK citizens who sub out their licences) this will continue after Brexit no matter what Cummings and his cronies would have you believe.  

Pretty much every detriment to the UK that's perceived as EU imposition is actually traceable in one way or another back to UK Government policy and has little to do with the EU in comparison. If you want to play the game of naming one that isn't, be my guest. 

 

 

Edited February 23, 2020 by bigjohn

[Al Krow]

1 hour ago, ambient said:

The creative industry employees some half a million people, that’s as many as the construction industry. It brings £110 billion into the economy. In contrast, fishing employs 11,000 full-time people, and delivers £1 billion to the economy. Which industry is being listened to, which ignored? 

It also has wider implications. Without going off topic, I’m a musician it’ll affect me travelling to perform in whatever guise. I’m also an academic, my PhD is practical based. Academia relies heavily on travelling and meeting people, especially so where the two fields meet.

A £110 billion creative industry is not going to be impacted, other than at the tiniest margin, by the introduction of visas for overseas musicians coming to the UK. The US has much higher barriers to entry, and I don't see any sign of its creative industry collapsing.

The gripe here is that the EU will respond in kind and that's going to mean the loss of work for UK musicians travelling to the EU.

[bigjohn]

10 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

The gripe here is that the EU will respond in kind and that's going to mean the loss of work for UK musicians travelling to the EU.

TBF, this is a musicians forum and so the gripe about the effects on musicians is natural. 

In the wider scheme of things, it's not going to be just musicians though is it?

[jimmyb625]

52 minutes ago, ambient said:

I wonder if our perception of working in the arts has a bearing in our reaction to this, ie, it not being a ‘proper’ job?

Absolutely. Any artist that points out how they're going to be affected by this will be portrayed, by some, as liberal elites who don't respect democracy.

At some point I'm sure they'll wheel out Roger Daltry to say it won't be a problem*.

 

 

 

*For bands with a tour budget the size of his.

[ambient]

11 minutes ago, bigjohn said:

TBF, this is a musicians forum and so the gripe about the effects on musicians is natural. 

In the wider scheme of things, it's not going to be just musicians though is it?

That’s what I keep saying, it’s across the board, the whole of the artistic industry.

[bigjohn]

3 minutes ago, ambient said:

That’s what I keep saying, it’s across the board, the whole of the artistic industry.

And in terms of restrictions and costs to work temporary contracts directly with EU based companies, across the whole of the UK workforce. 

I've done 10s of thousands of pounds of work for Irish, Dutch and German companies over the years without leaving my house (I work in IT). I'm pretty sure I won't be getting those jobs any more as I guess their payroll will require additional admin which will make it much easier to give it to a EU citizen. Before someone says that means there will be more UK work... it won't. 

 

[fretmeister]

More info...

 

 

[Al Krow]

25 minutes ago, ambient said:

That’s what I keep saying, it’s across the board, the whole of the artistic industry.

Nah, storm in a tea cup. A £110 biliion industry is not going to be impacted except at the margin by a few visas on musicians or other artists / creatives coming to the UK. Seriously, exactly what is going to collapse / not happen if non-UK creatives have to get a visa?

Is the US creative industry in tatters because it has visas? No, I didn't think so. 

Edited February 23, 2020 by Al Krow

[DoubleOhStephan]

6 minutes ago, bigjohn said:

Then if we were still members and our democratically elected representatives thought that the regulations were not in the UKs interest, then they could have been vetoed. 

Ahh I see, we can trust our elected representatives to make the right decisions in the UKs interest when they're sat in Brussels, but not when they're sat in Westminster. 

9 minutes ago, bigjohn said:

BTW. The whole fishing rights thing is a complete red herring.

Maybe, that's certainly an opinion on the subject. I have no informed opinion on the matter, so will keep my own council. 

But, as you know, I didn't bring up fishing and was simply addressing the question of public awareness of that issue vs the musician visa issue. 

16 minutes ago, bigjohn said:

If you want to play the game of naming one that isn't, be my guest. 

I'm not really interested in playing games either.

Irrespective of whatever example I give, you would claim to have greater insight and assign ownership to the UK. 

It does strike me as somewhat unlikely though that, every single legislation passed by the EU, all the directives, regulations and decisions, were actually made first by the UK and that Brussels is just pretending to be a legislative body and is taking all the credit for the UKs work. 

It also seems hugely inefficient (both cost and time) for UK to go through the rigmarole of having any legislation they'd like to introduce first go through multiple layers of EU bureaucracy. Not to mention the increased risk of having it blocked by any one of the other EU countries whi may have a vested interest. 

[Cuzzie]

People will get affected, there is no doubt, as will the industry.

What is asinine is to discount/paper over the view with broad strokes of the people that will actually have to live and breathe this. 

[Lozz196]

Quick question to those in the know, is the fee per visit, or is it for a specific time period (year/5 years etc). If per year I know that, although it’s a fair initial outlay, my old band would have had no issues (other than getting three dumbos to complete the relevant forms that is). 

[bigjohn]

29 minutes ago, DoubleOhStephan said:

It does strike me as somewhat unlikely though that, every single legislation passed by the EU, all the directives, regulations and decisions, were actually made first by the UK and that Brussels is just pretending to be a legislative body and is taking all the credit for the UKs work. 

Thats not what I said. 

What I said was, pretty much every detriment to the UK that’s perceived as EU imposition is traceable back to UK government policy. Fishing rights is a prime example. It doesn’t take much to research it.

But whilst we’re at it, all of the directives, regulations and decisions taken by the EU were done with the UK as a highly influential member with a veto which the UK government of the day has chosen to write into sovereign UK law rather than make use of. I said nothing about them being in Brussels. 
 

literally nothing, ever has been imposed on the UK by the EU against the express will and without cooperation of the UK government, If you have a problem with any of them, then your problem is with the UK government and not the EU. 

These are not my opinions either, they’re just plain fact. 

Edited February 23, 2020 by bigjohn

[DoubleOhStephan]

24 minutes ago, bigjohn said:

What I said was, pretty much every detriment to the UK that’s perceived as EU imposition is traceable back to UK government policy. Fishing rights is a prime example. It doesn’t take much to research it. 

Ahh right, so only the ones detrimental to the UK come from the UK policies. 

24 minutes ago, bigjohn said:

But whilst we’re at it... 

*skip*

Edited February 23, 2020 by DoubleOhStephan

[krispn]

As has been said the changes will impact many folks from individual musicians, small business owners right up to multi-national companies and corporations. Irrespective of how adroit the individual or organisation may be there will still be consequences to deal with be that bureaucratic, financial etc. I have no idea the impact on agriculture, healthcare, the service sector,  the financial markets etc but I do think it will be felt across the nation as a whole and not just in the day to day discussion and debate we're all having at home, in the workplace and on this forum.

Whether you see the glass as half full, half empty or about to fall off the table and crash into tiny little pieces we can all say with a degree of confidence that we will all feel the impact of this for years to come.

 

[DoubleOhStephan]

25 minutes ago, Lozz196 said:

Quick question to those in the know, is the fee per visit, or is it for a specific time period (year/5 years etc). If per year I know that, although it’s a fair initial outlay, my old band would have had no issues (other than getting three dumbos to complete the relevant forms that is). 

I'm not in the know, but I've read the policy. 

These are the two relevant points. I believe the £244 fee relates to Teir 5 which is for 12 / 24month visits.

I'm sure I read somewhere that the 6 month visit includes 4 weeks work, but I don't have that to hand. 

21. Under the current immigration rules, there are a range of other immigration routes for specialist occupations, including innovators, ministers of religion, sportspeople and to support the arts. Our broad approach for January 2021 will be to open existing routes that already apply to non-EU citizens, to EU citizens (the current ‘Tier 5’).

Other routes

23. In addition, we will continue our generous visitor provisions, but with simplified rules and guidance. We expect to treat EU citizens as non-visa nationals meaning they can come to the UK as visitors for six months without the need to obtain a visa. We will also unilaterally allow EU citizens to continue to use e-gates, but we will keep this policy under review. There will be no change to the arrangements for the Common Travel Area.

Edited February 23, 2020 by DoubleOhStephan

[DoubleOhStephan]

4 minutes ago, DoubleOhStephan said:

I'm sure I read somewhere that the 6 month visit includes 4 weeks work, but I don't have that to hand. 

Found it, it was in a statement from the Home Office in this article - 

"But the Home Office says it does allow the self-employed to work on events for up to a month.

It states: "The UK's existing rules permit artists, entertainers and musicians to perform at events and take part in competitions and auditions for up to six months. They can receive payment for appearances at certain festivals or for up to a month for a specific engagement, without the need for formal sponsorship or a work visa."

[bigjohn]

15 minutes ago, DoubleOhStephan said:

Ahh right, so only the ones detrimental to the UK come from the UK policies. 

*skip*

No, I never said that either. 
 

 

[ambient]

21 minutes ago, DoubleOhStephan said:

Found it, it was in a statement from the Home Office in this article - 

"But the Home Office says it does allow the self-employed to work on events for up to a month.

It states: "The UK's existing rules permit artists, entertainers and musicians to perform at events and take part in competitions and auditions for up to six months. They can receive payment for appearances at certain festivals or for up to a month for a specific engagement, without the need for formal sponsorship or a work visa."

That’s changed in the recent immigration rules though, hence this thread. 

Edited February 23, 2020 by ambient

[Lozz196]

So assuming that the EU only do similar bands/performers will still be able to do week long tours as currently, with no costs. Well that will be a result, both for artists/musicians, and for common sense/practicality.

[bigjohn]

14 minutes ago, Lozz196 said:

So assuming that the EU only do similar bands/performers will still be able to do week long tours as currently, with no costs. Well that will be a result, both for artists/musicians, and for common sense/practicality.

It will be / is the prerogative of each EU member state how they treat visitors from 3rd party states. 

[Lozz196]

1 minute ago, bigjohn said:

It will be / is the prerogative of each EU member state how they treat visitors from 3rd party states. 

Fingers crossed then. 

[Al Krow]

54 minutes ago, krispn said:

As has been said the changes will impact many folks from individual musicians, small business owners right up to multi-national companies and corporations. Irrespective of how adroit the individual or organisation may be there will still be consequences to deal with be that bureaucratic, financial etc. I have no idea the impact on agriculture, healthcare, the service sector,  the financial markets etc but I do think it will be felt across the nation as a whole and not just in the day to day discussion and debate we're all having at home, in the workplace and on this forum.

Whether you see the glass as half full, half empty or about to fall off the table and crash into tiny little pieces we can all say with a degree of confidence that we will all feel the impact of this for years to come.

FoM changes will obviously have a broad impact. No one is debating that. If if didn't, then we wouldn't have had a massive national debate. Whether it's going to be for good or ill time will tell. 

Imposition of visa requirements on overseas creatives coming to the UK? Doubt if Joe Public is going to notice anything much at all, irrespective of what they have had to drink and how full their glasses are. 

Edited February 23, 2020 by Al Krow