EU artists will need a VISA to perform in UK from 2021

[Al Krow]

45 minutes ago, mcnach said:

you really need to stop reading only The Telegraph, and look at the figures elsewhere too...

Haha I do indeed (and am even foolhardy enough to make a contribution to the leading left wing 'rag' for balance given that it doesn't have a pay wall unlike the right of centre 'broadsheets'). 

But please do provide the correct figures, if those I cited were wrong. 

Edited February 22, 2020 by Al Krow

[ambient]

I keep saying it, but this isn’t just about bands and musicians, it’s the whole creative sector; which according to the guardian yesterday is worth £110 billion, far more than fishing for example.

Something I posted earlier was how this is going to reduce opportunity for UK youngsters. Previously anyone of us who had a mind to could have worked anywhere in anyone of thirty countries. If they didn’t then fine, but that opportunity was there. From January 2021 the number of countries available for them to work in, without the need for a visa, or obtaining a job beforehand will be one. 

I mentioned DJs, it’s not something I’ve any experience in, but I do know DJing is far more than just playing a record, it’s hugely popular, and it makes up a big part of the creative industry’s income. It’s focused in certain areas though, and I don’t think either Butlins in Minehead or the Ball room in Blackpool are part of that scene?

I wonder how many kids had dreams to be the next big star or even to just work in some manner in one of the big clubs in Ibiza? These jobs will go to locals or people from other EU countries. I’ve never heard of any of these names, most seem to be British though.

http://www.deephouseamsterdam.com/ibiza/10-dj-legends-of-ibiza/

[Leonard Smalls]

48 minutes ago, owen said:

I would love to think that a well supported public petition would get Parliament to reconsider/change/whatever.

Aye! One would hope that since there is now a means of directly petitioning government said government would give careful consideration to those that meet the criteria, rather than just a cursory dismissal (which is what seems to have happened to most petitions!).

I've also attempted to write to my local MP (on a puppy farm related issue, so only anything to do with this thread if you're in an Osmonds tribute ) - he completely ignored all my points and said he would be doing nothing as "he believes in free enterprise". 

So it appears that the only avenue available to change government's mind is to get the support of the red tops... Given that most folk in the country think music and the arts begins with The Voice/XFactor/Karaoke and ends with Strictly I won't be holding by breath!

[Al Krow]

@BigRedX I think the choices are:

(i) do nothing and you guarantee nothing will change;

(ii) fight for your cause and if you fail then at least you've tried;

(iii) if the new rules stay in place despite our collective best efforts, then you have to learn to live with them. 

Change happens all the time. When it does you have to adapt or go the way of the dinosaurs; it's the way of the world. Nokia was the largest mobile phone maker at the turn of the century. Spotify didn't even exist then. Woolworths were still on our high streets. Just three examples.

We are where we are, it's a case of making the most of it. If that's an optimistic philosophy then I'm guilty as charged.

Edited February 22, 2020 by Al Krow

[Leonard Smalls]

1 minute ago, Al Krow said:

We are where we are, it's a case of making the most of it. If that's an optimistic philosophy then I'm guilty as charged.

But where's the fun in that? We Britishers, especially us Northern Britishers love to whinge!

[Cuzzie]

6 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

@BigRedX I think

Change happens all the time. When it does you have to adapt or go the way of the dinosaurs; 

Pretty hard to adapt when A catastrophic event seals your fate.......

[DoubleOhStephan]

41 minutes ago, BigRedX said:

The reality is that no-one will really know what the real impact is until it actual happens and has been in place a year or so, but the chance are it won't be good for musicians or the UK music scene

No one knows what's going to happen, but you know it's going to be bad..? 

41 minutes ago, BigRedX said:

The only goof thing is that this is still only a proposal and there is a chance that it will be negotiated away. We can only hope.

We can do more than hope, we can support the unions to give them the best possible chance to secure the best possible outcome. That may need to be a compromise, it may fail completely, but it moves the needle on the Chanceometer from No Chance to Skin In The Game. 

Edited February 22, 2020 by DoubleOhStephan

[krispn]

Keeping on topic which can be challenging at the best of times...

In the time it took to get this far into this thread all of us could have found out who our local MP is, have fashioned a letter and stated our position in relation to the topics and industries raised over the ten or so pages.

Changes are coming for musicians and the wider arts ..many of those changes are still being figured out and many, many more likely haven’t even been considered! 
 

People power, the power to mobilise, petition and make our elected representatives work for us is clearly the most useful way to elicit some positive change, certainly from grassroots groups, more established organisations and relative industry/professional bodies.
 

The mistrust of the government following the last four years (and for those of us in Scotland or who took an active interest in the Independence discussion another few years on top of that) will know that the disinformation can be hard to discern from the truth and most figures are mailable at best!

This thread has raised some good points and inevitably we don’t know what will happen. It sounds like for musicians (and many others) there will be some changes which will have a financial impact and while the debate is fun we’d all be better off writing to those elected officials, professional bodies etc to ask questions and raise issues be that within agriculture, the arts or your sector of work. 
 

People power indeed!

[Woodinblack]

37 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

(i) do nothing and you guarantee nothing will change;

(ii) fight for your cause and if you fail then at least you've tried;

I was always one for ii, but there are only so many years you can fight for your cause before you realise that it is a complete waste of energy. Madness is trying the same thing over and over again expecting a different outcome. Brexit has proved to me that the countries priorities are so far removed from mine, although i) seems negative, it is exactly the same outcome with less effort. I am not too old to make a life anywhere else, so as I can't actually choose my neighbours, the best option is just to fraction further and just have as little to do with them as possible.

[Woodinblack]

6 minutes ago, krispn said:

In the time it took to get this far into this thread all of us could have found out who our local MP is, have fashioned a letter and stated our position in relation to the topics and industries raised over the ten or so pages.

I know who my local MP is, he is a parachuted in Tory who has no interest in anything other than brexit. We have conversed with him several times, and have come to realise that he is not one of the bright crayons in the packet* and that what you want doesn't entirely align with his views, he has no interest in helping you or assisting in any way. And in the latest election his majority increased. To be fair, I think he put a lot of effort in. I think he even visited the area once or twice for a photo op. 

* My wife runs and online shop, she wrote to him because as a direct result (ie, you can measure it) of brexit her shop is doing badly compared to 2016, and asking about aditional help the government can provide to small businesses. He wrote and said the problem she was facing was due to the increase of internet shopping. Well, thanks for reading Marcus.

Edited February 22, 2020 by Woodinblack

[SubsonicSimpleton]

12 hours ago, ambient said:

It’s not just that though. For someone to come here and play, they need a certificate of sponsorship. That has to be issued by an approved and licensed promoter or organiser. How many organisers are going to do that? There’s thousands of creative and artistic events take place every year across the UK, they’re mostly done by independent organisers, with little or no budget. They’re not going to get licensed or officially approved, therefore the guy coming from Amsterdam with his MacBook and midi controller won’t be able to come. 

Just to be clear I think that losing FOM is a bad thing but I think you are being excessively pessimistic.

What is stopping the guy from Amsterdam getting on a plane/train with his macbook and going "on holiday"?

If you look at the raw maths of numbers of enforcement officers and the priorites of the enforcement agencies whose remit this situation might cover, what is the realistic likelyhood that officers are going to appear at any small event and start detaining people on suspicion of working without a visa?

Everything is subject to cost/benefit, so unless we find ourselves in a situation where the powers that be are engaging in a Stalinist crackdown on the free exchange of ideas and sending all the artists and intellectuals to the gulag, in all likelyhood the authorities will only start to actively pursue you when you have passed the economic threshold where paying for the visa wouldn't be an issue.

[bigjohn]

Yep. All well and get crying "It's democracy" when something happens that you wanted. It's very difficult to get things done when politicians don't value what you want as a vote winner. 

People would do well to remember that over 48% of the vote wasn't for Brexit and the turnout, although high means that only 37.4 of the electorate voted in favour. It's a minority cause and always has been, which has been blown out of all proportion by electioneering. 

When the problems it is causing are brought to people's attention, then people who voted for Brexit should really know better than essentially saying "deal with it". And "write to your MP" isn't much better. 

"Sorry for ****ing your life up" would be a start. 

 

 

Edited February 22, 2020 by bigjohn

[Graham]

Carnets are already causing problems

 

[Leonard Smalls]

5 minutes ago, Graham said:

Carnets are already causing problems

I came back from skiing on 25th January to Manchester airport... I was very surprised to see that at passport control it already said "UK citizens" (with flags of Oz, Canada etc too) one lane, other passports in the other lane. The powers that be were so rabidly keen that this had started 6 days before we'd even entered our 11 month transition period!

So it doesn't surprise me that carnets are already being enforced; as Cuzzie said above, remember the "hostile environment" brought in by Ms. May! 

As our band is relatively new, so we haven't had the joy of trying a European tour yet - though the added grief means it's less likely. And it's a shame that all those little-ish punk bands from Italy, Germany, France will also find it much more difficult, and lovely little venues like Percy's in Whitchurch will probably have far less variety.

[ambient]

26 minutes ago, SubsonicSimpleton said:

Just to be clear I think that losing FOM is a bad thing but I think you are being excessively pessimistic.

What is stopping the guy from Amsterdam getting on a plane/train with his macbook and going "on holiday"?

If you look at the raw maths of numbers of enforcement officers and the priorites of the enforcement agencies whose remit this situation might cover, what is the realistic likelyhood that officers are going to appear at any small event and start detaining people on suspicion of working without a visa?

Everything is subject to cost/benefit, so unless we find ourselves in a situation where the powers that be are engaging in a Stalinist crackdown on the free exchange of ideas and sending all the artists and intellectuals to the gulag, in all likelyhood the authorities will only start to actively pursue you when you have passed the economic threshold where paying for the visa wouldn't be an issue.

I’m guessing the giveaway might be when the luggage is x-rayed at the train station. Boarding a Eurostar you have to go through both that country’s immigration then the UK immigration. It’s currently a very simple procedure, a lot easier than the last time i flew, but it’s still there, and likely to get more robust; don’t forget that the immigration lanes will be changing. If they see that you’re carrying musical equipment and a bundle of cassettes, CDs and vinyl, then put 2+2 together, you risk I guess being refused entry.

[Lozz196]

31 minutes ago, SubsonicSimpleton said:

 

What is stopping the guy from Amsterdam getting on a plane/train with his macbook and going "on holiday"?

 

Pretty much nothing. I know of many bands that play in one area of the world which has rather stringent regulations and from my understanding all of them manage it as above. You run the risks of course, but it can be done. 

[SubsonicSimpleton]

8 minutes ago, ambient said:

I’m guessing the giveaway might be when the luggage is x-rayed at the train station. Boarding a Eurostar you have to go through both that country’s immigration then the UK immigration. It’s currently a very simple procedure, a lot easier than the last time i flew, but it’s still there, and likely to get more robust; don’t forget that the immigration lanes will be changing. If they see that you’re carrying musical equipment and a bundle of cassettes, CDs and vinyl, then put 2+2 together, you risk I guess being refused entry.

It isn't illegal or unlawful to travel with any personal belongings that don't contravene the laws of the country you are travelling to or the regulations of the travel provider - attempting to carry a merch stand through customs would just be plain silly, but if you are carrying your own instrument/computer and you haven't stuffed the control compartment full of illegal substances, they have no legal basis to challenge you. It's a good idea to be able to prove you own your own intrument to avoid situations where customs might attempt to charge you import duties for bringing your own property back into the country, but there is no law preventing private citizens from taking there property abroad for their own personal enjoyment.

[Rich]

1 hour ago, SubsonicSimpleton said:

What is stopping the guy from Amsterdam getting on a plane/train with his macbook and going "on holiday"?

 

"Ah, it might look like a Trace Elliot 4x10, but it's actually a suitcase... Errm, honest..."

[bigjohn]

Oh Great. So people are now giving advice to others which includes breaking the laws of our own country and others whilst they're at it. 

Taking back control... 

Pretty sure a musician here, working with no work visa would, if discovered, be arrested, detained uncomfortably and for an unspecified time before being blacklisted and deported. Never mind the trouble that the promoter and the venue would incur for employing an illegal immigrant.

What makes anyone think the same wouldn't happen abroad to a UK citizen doing the same?

Edited February 22, 2020 by bigjohn

[Maude]

So EU bands won't come to the UK to play and UK bands won't go to the EU to play, so the UK bands can take the EU bands gigs in the UK, and EU bands can take the UK bands gigs in the EU, everyone keeps gigging and there's a lot less travel involved which is great for the environment.

Yes that's a very simplistic view but we all seem to focusing on the gigs we'll lose rather than the new ones that will be up for grabs. 

[bigjohn]

11 minutes ago, Maude said:

So EU bands won't come to the UK to play and UK bands won't go to the EU to play, so the UK bands can take the EU bands gigs in the UK, and EU bands can take the UK bands gigs in the EU, everyone keeps gigging and there's a lot less travel involved which is great for the environment.

Except for all of the people from the UK travelling to the EU to see non UK bands...

I already have done far too much of that due to sell outs and thanks to the stupidly expensive rail system we have the UK. Sometimes it's barely any more expensive to go see a band in Amsterdam or Milan than it is to see them in London. That's before the likely price hike we'll see when this comes into view. 

Edited February 22, 2020 by bigjohn

[peteb]

15 minutes ago, Maude said:

So EU bands won't come to the UK to play and UK bands won't go to the EU to play, so the UK bands can take the EU bands gigs in the UK, and EU bands can take the UK bands gigs in the EU, everyone keeps gigging and there's a lot less travel involved which is great for the environment.

Yes that's a very simplistic view but we all seem to focusing on the gigs we'll lose rather than the new ones that will be up for grabs. 

So much for global Britain then... 

[Maude]

5 minutes ago, bigjohn said:

Except for all of the people from the UK travelling to the EU to see non UK bands...

I already have done far too much of that due to sell outs and thanks to the stupidly expensive rail system we have the UK. Sometimes it's barely any more expensive to go see a band in Amsterdam or Milan than it is to see them in London. 

That's a fair point but I'm just trying to find the positives. There's so much negativity in this thread. 

If there will be a flood of UK folks travelling to the EU to see bands now then surely the other side of that will be all the EU folks coming to the UK to see UK bands if we're not over there, bad for the environment but great for our tourism industry, so other sectors will benefit from this. 

 

[bigjohn]

4 minutes ago, Maude said:

If there will be a flood of UK folks travelling to the EU to see bands now then surely the other side of that will be all the EU folks coming to the UK to see UK bands if we're not over there, bad for the environment but great for our tourism industry, so other sectors will benefit from this. 

 

Maybe. I think the problem with trying to positives though is that it allows people to gloss over the real problems that this amongst other aspects of Brexit will cause. Solutions and mitigation of those problems are what we need to find and the first step with solving any problem is admitting that they do exist. 

Edited February 22, 2020 by bigjohn

[Maude]

3 minutes ago, peteb said:

So much for global Britain then... 

I don't know the answers but I don't see how we can be "Global Britain" and massively cut down on travelling. 

I know this is getting off topic but surely we will have to regress into smaller more local communities in all areas if we want to cut down the insane amount of fuel we burn on travel. 

I've waded into a thread I'm out of my depth in, things change all the time and I just learn to adapt and get the most out of it and enjoy my quiet little life. I'll do the same with all these changes. I was merely trying to point out that it's not all closing doors, some will be opening.