EU artists will need a VISA to perform in UK from 2021

[Al Krow]

1 minute ago, ambient said:

The music business has changed massively since the 1960s. 

Well yes, that was my point about Spotify much earlier in the thread...

Adapt or go the way of the dinosaurs.

Edited February 20, 2020 by Al Krow

[peteb]

1 minute ago, Al Krow said:

Well yes, that was my point about Spotify much earlier in the thread...

Adapt or go the way of the dinosaurs.

What it really means for many people I know is forget about making a living from playing music and go and get a job in a call centre. 

Meanwhile, all the decent work will go to those with an EU passport. 

[bigjohn]

1 minute ago, peteb said:

What it really means for many people I know is forget about making a living from playing music and go and get a job in a call centre. 

Meanwhile, all the decent work will go to those with an EU passport. 

There's plenty of fruit and veg that needs picking. 

Although, from what I've heard through the grapevine, the plan is for licensed companies to sort that out with semi mobile, billeted Ukrainians. What could possibly go wrong there?  

 

[Al Krow]

Things will indeed change following the end of FoM and a new visa / immigration policy and there will be winners and losers.

For the average unskilled British worker ie those as a group most left behind by globalisation in the UK, things should get better: employers will no longer get away with some of the lowest levels of workforce investment amongst advanced economies as they are forced to abandon their addiction to cheap E European workers trained at some one else's expense. 

That may, as you say, come at the price of some pro musos having to get a day job, like the rest of us. 

[ambient]

52 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

Things will indeed change following the end of FoM and a new visa / immigration policy and there will be winners and losers.

For the average unskilled British worker ie those as a group most left behind by globalisation in the UK, things should get better: employers will no longer get away with some of the lowest levels of workforce investment amongst advanced economies as they are forced to abandon their addiction to cheap E European workers trained at some one else's expense. 

That may, as you say, come at the price of some pro musos having to get a day job, like the rest of us. 

Do you seriously believe that things will improve for workers?

The cheap Eastern European worker is a myth. How many British born people do you know would work in a field in the pouring rain and cold picking whatever seasonal crop, for the minimum wage? The crops will and are going unpicked. Bottoms will go unwiped in nursing and care homes. They’re on average better qualified and better trained that UK workers, their qualifications and training obtained abroad, so not at our expense. 

What they’re actually doing, if you look properly, is making it harder for you and I to go abroad to work. They’ve also lowered the salary cap for workers from abroad, and lowered the minimum qualification from a degree to the equivalent of an A level. Bearing in mind that most Europeans have a fantastic grasp of English, then the requirement to speak English won’t be much of a hindrance. 
 

This thread though, is meant to be about musicians and other creatives coming here, and us going there. Everyone I know from both sides of the channel who has performed abroad, in whatever capacity is saying the new rules will prevent them from doing so in the future. The only people who aren’t, have probably never performed abroad, and probably have never had any intention of doing so. Therefore I would rather listen to those who have, than those who’re talking without any experience.

As an artist and an academic, it will cause massive disruption, and negatively impact what I do.

Edited February 21, 2020 by ambient

[gapiro]

1 hour ago, Al Krow said:

Things will indeed change following the end of FoM and a new visa / immigration policy and there will be winners and losers.

For the average unskilled British worker ie those as a group most left behind by globalisation in the UK, things should get better: employers will no longer get away with some of the lowest levels of workforce investment amongst advanced economies as they are forced to abandon their addiction to cheap E European workers trained at some one else's expense. 

That may, as you say, come at the price of some pro musos having to get a day job, like the rest of us. 

Except the number of day jobs is doing down and there are just shedloads of Zero Hour contracts to fiill.... and Jobcentre paperwork.

The effect on immiigration on supressing workers wages is under a single percent. There are far more iissues, like constant deregulation etc.

Sources

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-46918729

https://migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/resources/briefings/the-labour-market-effects-of-immigration/

Edited February 21, 2020 by gapiro

[Al Krow]

5 minutes ago, ambient said:

Do you seriously believe that things will improve for workers?

The cheap Eastern European worker is a myth. How many British born people do you know would work in a field in the pouring rain and cold picking whatever seasonal crop, for the minimum wage? The crops will and are going unpicked. Bottoms will go unwiped in nursing and care homes. They’re on average better qualified and better trained that UK workers, their qualifications and training obtained abroad, so not at our expense. 

We're not going to agree on this one, but that's ok.

What I do know is that there are 800,000 16 to 24 year olds in the UK who are not in education or training [Source ONS]. Post ending FoM bosses are going to have invest in equipping some of these with skills and paying a decent wage instead of relying on cheap already trained workers from overseas. If even 100,000 of these youngsters are helped into work and a productive life as a result, then I'm afraid 500 or so (or whatever the number is) pro musos not being able to work in the EU is not something I'm going to shed a tear over. 

[gapiro]

8 hours ago, Al Krow said:

 

If it's a consequence of FoM coming to an end, then so be it. Sometimes we have to live with what our fellow countrymen vote for - it's called democracy. 

Except that more peopl voted for parties that were remain or 2nd ref than leave in the last election, but the biggest leave party gets a huge majority in our quite frankly, f****d voting system

[Al Krow]

Just now, gapiro said:

Except that more peopl voted for parties that were remain or 2nd ref than leave in the last election, but the biggest leave party gets a huge majority in our quite frankly, f****d voting system

People also voted against changing the system when offered the chance on 5 May 2011, by an overwhelming majority. Democracy eh?

[gapiro]

2 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

People also voted against changing the system when offered the chance on 5 May 2011, by an overwhelming majority. Democracy eh?

Because the alternative offered was less representational/proportional than the current system.... 

 https://www.electoral-reform.org.uk/voting-systems/types-of-voting-system/alternative-vote/ 
 

Quote

In certain conditions, such as the 2015 General Election, it would have produced a less proportional result than Westminster’s First Past the Post system

 

Edited February 21, 2020 by gapiro

[ambient]

I was just reading a report in the Guardian, warning about the potential rise in modern day slavery within agriculture following the changes. 

Unless you’re prepared to spend more on your fruit and vegetables, then it’s inevitable.

Are the 100,000 vacancies in NHS England going to be filles from within the UK? I’m guessing not otherwise there would’ve be the vacancies. Nurses and doctors are going abroad to work, where they’re better looked after.

My aim once I have my PhD is to move abroad. I know many people the same. Everything I’m currently doing is with that in mind. I’m studying french for an hour or so a day, I’m doing teacher training modules at the same time as my PhD. I have another year and a half. Will I be missed? Probably not, but I believe the UK will ultimately be a lot poorer in many ways if they continue along this road.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/feb/21/immigration-rules-post-brexit-could-fuel-modern-slavery-say-charities

[peteb]

This has really gone into the politics of the situation, which is inevitable. 

IBTL what we are talking about is the death if an industry. And its not just musicians who will 'have to get a day job', it's all the small businesses and individuals who make a decent living in the high tech and creative industries that the UK has excelled at... 

Edited February 21, 2020 by peteb

[gary mac]

To remain open, this thread needs to move away from politics, however, given the subject matter, I doubt that can really happen.

 

Hovering over the lock.............but for now it stays. 

[MacDaddy]

France has a policy/law that a certain percentage of music broadcast has to be in French, thus encouraging the development and success of French musicians in France, so if musicians are not coming in from the continent will this not be better for UK musicians in the UK?

[Teebs]

6 minutes ago, MacDaddy said:

France has a policy/law that a certain percentage of music broadcast has to be in French, thus encouraging the development and success of French musicians in France, so if musicians are not coming in from the continent will this not be better for UK musicians in the UK?

I can't see that that would make any difference at all, as a large percentage of music enjoyed in the UK is in English - opera being a notable exception.

Or maybe the UK government wonks will try to insist English is used in all musical performance.

Wouldn't put it past them...

[ezbass]

I’ve always thought that there is a more energetic live scene on the continent than here, certainly at smaller venues. The more niche acts that I like and have liked in the past, always seem to do quite a bit on the continent. For those type of acts that are UK based, I imagine that this will certainly impact their income. For those acts outside the EU, principally the US (Robben Ford, The Aristocrats, etc for instance), having to obtain 2 sets of visas will probably have them bypass the UK altogether as they barely play here on their European tours in the first place. It’s a shoddy state of affairs.

Oh yeah, IBTL!

[Leonard Smalls]

1 hour ago, Al Krow said:

Post ending FoM bosses are going to have invest in equipping some of these with skills and paying a decent wage instead of relying on cheap already trained workers from overseas.

Bosses? Decent wage?

As a boss, we've had terrible trouble finding people to work for us - we don't pay the minimum wage but the Living Wage as a minimum. We can't afford to pay any more - the business just won't take it - though we give a pay rise every year.

And I suspect it's the same for most other SMEs - they have to pay at least minimum wage, but often pay more. And they still find it difficult to find suitable people; all we ask for are folks who are willing to learn, can string a sentence together and are friendly and outgoing (we're a shop!). And we've found that the majority of applicants can't write a coherent CV, can't be bothered to write even a basic covering letter and haven't even attempted to find out what our business is. However, we've found Lithuanians who seem to far more personable and fluent in English! So far we've only managed to find one English person under 30 to work for us...

[Rich]

14 minutes ago, ezbass said:

For those acts outside the EU, principally the US (Robben Ford, The Aristocrats, etc for instance), having to obtain 2 sets of visas will probably have them bypass the UK altogether as they barely play here on their European tours in the first place. It’s a shoddy state of affairs.

 

Yes. Case in point: my favourite jazz guitarist announced a 'European' tour last year. It included nine dates in Germany but the closest he got to the UK was Paris. Not the first time this has happened, and I suspect will become the norm.

[jimmyb625]

2 hours ago, ambient said:

 <snip>

This thread though, is meant to be about musicians and other creatives coming here, and us going there. Everyone I know from both sides of the channel who has performed abroad, in whatever capacity is saying the new rules will prevent them from doing so in the future. The only people who aren’t, have probably never performed abroad, and probably have never had any intention of doing so. Therefore I would rather listen to those who have, than those who’re talking without any experience.

I completely agree with this.

[peteb]

9 minutes ago, Leonard Smalls said:

Bosses? Decent wage?

As a boss, we've had terrible trouble finding people to work for us - we don't pay the minimum wage but the Living Wage as a minimum. We can't afford to pay any more - the business just won't take it - though we give a pay rise every year.

And I suspect it's the same for most other SMEs - they have to pay at least minimum wage, but often pay more. And they still find it difficult to find suitable people; all we ask for are folks who are willing to learn, can string a sentence together and are friendly and outgoing (we're a shop!). And we've found that the majority of applicants can't write a coherent CV, can't be bothered to write even a basic covering letter and haven't even attempted to find out what our business is. However, we've found Lithuanians who seem to far more personable and fluent in English! So far we've only managed to find one English person under 30 to work for us...

My wife used to be a Catering Manager for a large company who had held loads of franchises for schools, hospitals  and businesses etc. She used to regularly recruit kitchen staff for minimum wage positions and had the same experience. 

[bigjohn]

I run an SME. We employ 3 people. 2 of them are youngish. All British. They’re all sound and we pay to train them. 
 

Unfortunately, we won’t be employing any more people, British or not for the foreseeable as to expand we would rely on EU grants, as we did when we set up, as our business is heavily reliant on plant and capital investment. There are no UK equivalents and none are expected to replace them. 

[Lozz196]

1 hour ago, gary mac said:

To remain open, this thread needs to move away from politics, however, given the subject matter, I doubt that can really happen.

 

Hovering over the lock.............but for now it stays. 

Quite agree Gary, it started out about musicians and the difficulties that we’ll be facing due to recent changes, which as far as I can see fits in General Music.

Yes there will be added difficulties but the bands that really want to do it will work with those difficulties and find their way. I agree it will have an effect but so do many things in life. 

[ambient]

38 minutes ago, Rich said:

Yes. Case in point: my favourite jazz guitarist announced a 'European' tour last year. It included nine dates in Germany but the closest he got to the UK was Paris. Not the first time this has happened, and I suspect will become the norm.

The Edinburgh festivals; fringe and literature, and Womad have had problems over the last few years. They’ve invited people over, and their visa application has been turned down. 
 

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/jun/06/edinburgh-arts-festivals-lobby-for-urgent-visa-reforms

I’m guessing it’ll even affect larger US bands too? If they’re on tour and are used to hiring a European crew, they’ll have to get visas for them to be able to travel here.

 

[ambient]

9 minutes ago, Lozz196 said:

Quite agree Gary, it started out about musicians and the difficulties that we’ll be facing due to recent changes, which as far as I can see fits in General Music.

Yes there will be added difficulties but the bands that really want to do it will work with those difficulties and find their way. I agree it will have an effect but so do many things in life. 

It’s not just a question really wanting to, it comes down to the economics.

You also need to consider that people on this side of the channel; the promoter or organiser will also have added expenditure. They need to be licensed and issue a sponsorship certificate. Bear in mind that most of the thousands of little art and music festivals that take place across the UK every year, are running to a very tight budget, they just won’t bother. I’m not referring to the likes of Glastonbury, my university holds several experimental music festivals each year, there’s the Huddersfield festival that attracts visitors from across the UK and Europe. Also bear in mind that they spend money when they come.

[peteb]

19 minutes ago, Lozz196 said:

Quite agree Gary, it started out about musicians and the difficulties that we’ll be facing due to recent changes, which as far as I can see fits in General Music.

Yes there will be added difficulties but the bands that really want to do it will work with those difficulties and find their way. I agree it will have an effect but so do many things in life. 

I think that you have to except that this going to just stop a lot of musicians from playing in Europe and for many will mean the end of their career as a pro. That's not being alarmist, just accepting the inevitable. 

Of course, for bands that generate enough income this will just be a PITA and another business expense. Also, the occasional hobby band will just accept the additional expense and do it anyway instead of going on holiday to a Greek island for a week. But, for a certain level of pro player, this will have serious consequences that there will be no way round (as things stand at the moment) unless there is a change in the stance of both the British government and the EU. 

Edited February 21, 2020 by peteb