ambient Posted February 21, 2020 Share Posted February 21, 2020 (edited) It’s not just bands; that seems to be the misunderstanding here and in other places, where people are saying that bands toured in the 60s and 70s. Though they’re really demonstrating a misunderstanding of how the modern independent music scene works with that comment. People saying we should move with the times are missing the point too. This is the times, being able to jump on a Eurostar and perform without hindrance in Paris; or vice versa is the times, that’s how the current scene has evolved to work. No, it’s arts in general, be it solo performers in the experimental scene, painters, poets, authors, actors, dancers, basically all creatives. I would argue that the reason we have such a vibrant and respected arts scene, is due in part to the cross pollination of ideas, fostered by close collaborations with other artists from across Europe. I’ve seen it, and experienced it. Edited February 21, 2020 by ambient 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dodge_bass Posted February 21, 2020 Share Posted February 21, 2020 2 minutes ago, ambient said: It’s not just bands; that seems to be thé misunderstanding here and in other places, where people are saying they bands toured in the 60s and 70s. Though they’re showing a misunderstanding of how the modern independent music scene works. No, it’s arts in general, be it solo performers in the experimental scene, painters, poets, authors, actors, dancers, basically all creatives. I would argue that the reason we have such a vibrant and respected arts scene, is due in part to the cross pollination of ideas, fostered by close collaborations with other artists from across Europe. I’ve seen it, and experienced it. Agreed. I did ten years of low key gigging around Europe with a little Funk n Soul band. The margins were always really tight and we never made much financially but it was worth doing. We did some great gigs, met some fantastic people and got to travel and promote our music in person. This definitely wouldn't have happened if there were VISA / carnet requirements etc - the promoters just wouldn't have bothered as they couldn't afford it. So for lot of small niche bands on small labels I suspect there will be a real loss of those touring / collaboration opportunities which is a great shame. Larger bands will probably be able to suck it up but its the whole ecosystem of bands (of all sizes / shapes / genes) that will be impacted. Of course as has already been said we'll have to ultimately wait and see how it all shakes down but I think it's clear that anything which restricts movement (for whatever reason) is going to impact negatively on any sector where that is important. And given that's what the government is intending to do (whether you voted for it or not) I think we'll all be the poorer (financially / creatively / culturally) for it. I'll look back on those tours with fond memories of a simpler time when you could just jump on a plane with a bass! 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peteb Posted February 21, 2020 Share Posted February 21, 2020 4 minutes ago, ambient said: It’s not just bands; that seems to be thé misunderstanding here and in other places, where people are saying they bands toured in the 60s and 70s. Though they’re showing a misunderstanding of how the modern independent music scene works. No, it’s arts in general, be it solo performers in the experimental scene, painters, poets, authors, actors, dancers, basically all creatives. I would argue that the reason we have such a vibrant and respected arts scene, is due in part to the cross pollination of ideas, fostered by close collaborations with other artists from across Europe. I’ve seen it, and experienced it. Most of the people I'm talking about are musicians playing in 'traditional' bands, but I do understand that this affects a far greater group, be it classical musicians playing in an orchestra or the solo performers and artists you are referring to. Of course, it's not just musicians and artists that will get a kicking. Evert small scale high tech or creative business who rely on work across Europe are going to be in trouble. Some will be able to adapt, but most will either downsize or go out of business, to the benefit of their competitors across northern Europe. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertbass Posted February 21, 2020 Share Posted February 21, 2020 I remember playing in clubs in Germany in the 70s and it was all done illegally. Simple visitor's passport issued by the post office, a hastily typed up list of equipment which we called our carnet, a ferry from dover and hope for the best. Luckily, we got away with it. Don't forget that George Harrison was deported from Germany in 1960 for being under age. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonard Smalls Posted February 21, 2020 Share Posted February 21, 2020 39 minutes ago, dodge_bass said: And given that's what the government is intending to do (whether you voted for it or not) I think we'll all be the poorer (financially / creatively / culturally) for it. I'll look back on those tours with fond memories of a simpler time when you could just jump on a plane with a bass! But look at all that wonderful new freedom you'll have now that all our laws and regulations will be made by sensible English folks rather than by dastardly Johnny Foreigner! 😁 2 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dodge_bass Posted February 21, 2020 Share Posted February 21, 2020 1 minute ago, Leonard Smalls said: But look at all that wonderful new freedom you'll have now that all our laws and regulations will be made by sensible English folks rather than by dastardly Johnny Foreigner! 😁 I just can't wait to have our country back it's going to work out just fine..... 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonard Smalls Posted February 21, 2020 Share Posted February 21, 2020 7 minutes ago, dodge_bass said: I just can't wait to have our country back it's going to work out just fine..... I can see the sunlit uplands and the frolicking unicorns from here! However, just to throw a spanner in the works music-wise, I won't be looking forward to the possible return of carnets... Back in the late 80s I used to work in an office at the BBC doing carnets for film crews going to the far east... Every single piece of equipment, together with serial numbers, cases they came in, batteries, leads, connectors etc would have to be detailed in full, otherwise there'd be at best a lengthy delay (which cost a lot of money), or worse a delay plus a demand for import duty for the equipment to be released. And I was actually employed to do it right; imagine a band who don't know the possible problems trying to do a full carnet! Say you've already submitted it, then need new strings but can't get the brand that's on the carnet. Or the day before going the Whirlwind lead you've put on the form conks out and you put an OBBM one in instead. All of which could leave the band sat in customs for hours trying to prove how much they paid for the item and trying not to pay local VAT on it! 2 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MacDaddy Posted February 21, 2020 Share Posted February 21, 2020 https://www.change.org/p/government-parliament-let-touring-musicians-travel-support-musicians-working-in-the-eu-post-brexit-workingintheeu?recruiter=76597790&utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=facebook&utm_campaign=psf_combo_share_initial&utm_term=psf_combo_share_initial&recruited_by_id=613fecc5-6963-47d0-a99c-ba6388701d7c&utm_content=fht-13554501-en-gb%3Av2 If you care, sign and share. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Owen Posted February 21, 2020 Share Posted February 21, 2020 1 hour ago, dodge_bass said: Larger bands will probably be able to suck it up but its the whole ecosystem of bands (of all sizes / shapes / genes) that will be impacted. And it will be ok because larger bands just appear from nowhere. No one ever needs to learn their craft on smaller stages. The present cabinet are living proof of that. Sorry, was that political or satirical? 3 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Krow Posted February 21, 2020 Share Posted February 21, 2020 So should UK pro-musicians worried about a loss of livelihood from EU work be prepared to get off their backsides and move to Europe, while they can before the 31 Dec this year and FoM is still available, in the same way that 3 million+ EU citizens have been prepared to up sticks and move to the UK in search of work? Dublin would be great place to live, for example, and there are plenty of others! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daz39 Posted February 21, 2020 Share Posted February 21, 2020 3 minutes ago, Al Krow said: So should UK pro-musicians worried about a loss of livelihood from EU work be prepared to get off their backsides and move to Europe, while they can before the 31 Dec this year and FoM is still available, in the same way that 3 million+ EU citizens have been prepared to up sticks and move to the UK in search of work? Dublin would be great place to live, for example, and there are plenty of others! The difference is that the 3m+ were largely willing to move, whereas for the UK musicians the move would be necessity to maintain some form of continuity. I’m sure UK pubgoers are largely unbothered by who they see, but it’s a needless addition of bureaucracy that could have been avoided (one of many, most of which again are of no apparent concern to many) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peteb Posted February 21, 2020 Share Posted February 21, 2020 8 minutes ago, Al Krow said: So should UK pro-musicians worried about a loss of livelihood from EU work be prepared to get off their backsides and move to Europe, while they can before the 31 Dec this year and FoM is still available, in the same way that 3 million+ EU citizens have been prepared to up sticks and move to the UK in search of work? Dublin would be great place to live, for example, and there are plenty of others! I know several who have done so, but it's not practical for everyone. I'm not a pro, but I'm looking into whether it's feasible to make the move before the 31 December deadline. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Owen Posted February 21, 2020 Share Posted February 21, 2020 I am looking at whether it is possible to achieve Welsh independance before Dec 31st. That will be a no, but the concept has recently become a LOT more attractive. Sorry, is that political or cultural? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigjohn Posted February 21, 2020 Share Posted February 21, 2020 https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/priti-patel-immigration-music-industry-home-office-a9347921.html So the Creative Arts industry is worth an estimated £111Bln a year... It's not just about a few musos moving or not moving to Dublin... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Krow Posted February 21, 2020 Share Posted February 21, 2020 Tbf the 3M+ from the EU and the other several million from the rest of the world only up sticks and are prepared to leave their homelands and communities because the economic prospects are better over in the UK - assuming that they are economic migrants, of course, which the vast majority are / were (my parents included). So if there is a bigger pot of gold elsewhere and the opportunity to take go for it! Just now, peteb said: I know several who have done so, but it's not practical for everyone. I'm not a pro, but I'm looking into whether it's feasible to make the move before the 31 December deadline. You have my admiration sir! It does take a LOT of get up and go to leave the place you've grown up in; the reason why we have such capable EU and rest of the world citizens doing so well over here (and who often get first dibs on unskilled work) is that so many of them were folk with exactly that "get up and go". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dodge_bass Posted February 21, 2020 Share Posted February 21, 2020 Just now, bigjohn said: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/priti-patel-immigration-music-industry-home-office-a9347921.html So the Creative Arts industry is worth an estimated £111Bln a year... It's not just about a few musos moving or not moving to Dublin... https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/feb/21/music-industry-fears-bands-tour-uk-visas-brexit-immigration This in the Guardian as well today....that gives you an idea of my political leanings! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Krow Posted February 21, 2020 Share Posted February 21, 2020 (edited) 7 minutes ago, bigjohn said: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/priti-patel-immigration-music-industry-home-office-a9347921.html So the Creative Arts industry is worth an estimated £111Bln a year... It's not just about a few musos moving or not moving to Dublin... True and the pro-muso small club scene is worth diddly squat over here, as folk have already pointed out. What is worth £billions is film and computer graphics. We're doing brilliantly on that score as a nation. Edited February 21, 2020 by Al Krow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Krow Posted February 21, 2020 Share Posted February 21, 2020 1 minute ago, dodge_bass said: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/feb/21/music-industry-fears-bands-tour-uk-visas-brexit-immigration This in the Guardian as well today....that gives you an idea of my political leanings! Yeah but your use of filter pedals live more than makes up for it 😁 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dodge_bass Posted February 21, 2020 Share Posted February 21, 2020 Just now, Al Krow said: Yeah but your use of filter pedals live more than makes up for it 😁 Ha ha. Thanks @Al Krow it's good to know you're got my back Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Krow Posted February 21, 2020 Share Posted February 21, 2020 Just now, dodge_bass said: Ha ha. Thanks @Al Krow it's good to know you're got my back Our joint love for music trumps politics every day of the week, buddy 😉 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Browning Posted February 21, 2020 Share Posted February 21, 2020 2 hours ago, Lozz196 said: Quite agree Gary, it started out about musicians and the difficulties that we’ll be facing due to recent changes, which as far as I can see fits in General Music. Yes there will be added difficulties but the bands that really want to do it will work with those difficulties and find their way. I agree it will have an effect but so do many things in life. The problem is, one of the 'added difficulties' is that it may well become economically unviable. That's not something you can 'work with'. No more dog and egg at the Tunnel!! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigjohn Posted February 21, 2020 Share Posted February 21, 2020 8 minutes ago, Al Krow said: True and the pro-muso small club scene is worth diddly squat over here, as folk have already pointed out. What is worth £billions is film and computer graphics. We're doing brilliantly on that score as a nation. The likely effects of visas and carnets on the performing arts industry as a whole is what's more concerning. As we've already discussed, touring bands are less likely to come to the UK. Prices are likely to rise to cover costs for those that do. And yes, it's not just bands, its all of the performing arts, which is not diddly squat. It's £10s of billions. It's also an industry with a very high Gross Added Value. ie, it brings huge revenues to associated industries such as bars and restaurants, retail, transport etc. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Posted February 21, 2020 Share Posted February 21, 2020 2 hours ago, Lozz196 said: Yes there will be added difficulties but the bands that really want to do it will work with those difficulties and find their way. I agree it will have an effect but so do many things in life. Very stoic yes, but I can't help feeling this is about as practical as "everything will be ok if we just believe in Britain". 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Krow Posted February 21, 2020 Share Posted February 21, 2020 4 minutes ago, bigjohn said: The likely effects of visas and carnets on the performing arts industry as a whole is what's more concerning. As we've already discussed, touring bands are less likely to come to the UK. Prices are likely to rise to cover costs for those that do. And yes, it's not just bands, its all of the performing arts, which is not diddly squat. It's £10s of billions. It's also an industry with a very high Gross Added Value. ie, it brings huge revenues to associated industries such as bars and restaurants, retail, transport etc. And that's where I'm struggling with the economic analysis. If its worth £10s billions then frankly some enterprising half wit is going to spot that it's worth sorting out visas. It's either worth a lot of money, in which case visa costs and effort are worth it, or it's not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigjohn Posted February 21, 2020 Share Posted February 21, 2020 1 minute ago, Al Krow said: And that's where I'm struggling with the economic analysis. If its worth £10s billions then frankly some enterprising half wit is going to spot that it's worth sorting out visas. It's either worth a lot of money, in which case visa costs and effort are worth it, or it's not? It's worth a lot of money in aggregate, but is made up of lots of relatively small transactions with small margins on each. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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