EU artists will need a VISA to perform in UK from 2021

[Rich]

10 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

We are already changing the basis on which we support our farmers. The NFU has given this a massive thumbs up - and everyone is agreed there is no way that this new policy which is going to be good for farmers and the environment could have been put in place whilst we had to obey the dictat of the CAP. It's already one of the best things to have emerged in the last 4 weeks.

Agricultural policy has got nothing to do with visa requirements for performing artists. Please can you (and this is a broad 'you', not just an individual) stick to the subject in question. If the thread becomes a general B-word argument it will be closed.

[Cuzzie]

I love this choose your neighbours notion, take the Windrush generation. Open arms, come across all people from the Commonwealth.

50-60 years later having lived and worked their whole lives in the U.K. including paying taxes, remnants of this government decide that they need to prove where they went to school (many of which no longer exist) to determine their right to stay in the country, oh and by the way, sorry you got Cancer and needed treatment here is the bill for it, despite us saying your treatment is free as you have contributed your whole working life......

Yes it’s moved off topic, to other areas but it’s not surprising given the breadth of the subject, but also where people with little or no experience of how this affects musicians are passing broad comments on how it’ll probably be ok, and they just need to adapt, it’s a bit condescending unless they can come up with a magic secret sauce to help them other than “move or adapt”.

For the record, I am no expert on it, but have talked at length with a very good friend who will be affected and sympathise, on the musician issue. The rest of it, I am skeptical as we have seen problems in my area of work even before and during this uncertainty which have a very good chance of getting worse

[DoubleOhStephan]

13 minutes ago, Pseudonym said:

I live in the Cheeseburger Republic

Out of interest, do you require a work permit to work in the US? 

[Al Krow]

45 minutes ago, ambient said:

Have you asked UK farmers about dropping import duties? 

42 minutes ago, Leonard Smalls said:

What about putting on tariffs to help workers on, say, farms in Norfolk? 

Though I suspect that this government (though this is more than a suspicion!) are so free market obsessed that help won't be forthcoming to those who lose out as a result of the self-inflicted free-for-all. After all, it's survival of the fittest, eh? They'll have to adapt or die! Which isn't the sort of message that you want to hear if you've sunk all your savings into getting a thriving business going trading with our nearest neighbours over the space of 40 years only to discover that you have no idea whether you can profitably carry on that trade...

@Rich agreed - but please be balanced in your quoting; I was merely responding to points on farming made by fellow BC'ers. 

Back to visas for musicians everyone.

[ambient]

35 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

Nope that is not the attitude I would sign up for at all.

Being nimble and making the most of opportunities - yes! Making sure you take care of your countrymen who are left behind through no fault of their own, for whatever reason - also yes! 

To get back on point. Previously you and everyone else who had a mind to, could have worked in a creative capacity; either as a musician, a dancer, actor, or whatever, in anyone of thirty different countries. From next January, you’ll be able to do so in just one. Probably the only people who will be able to carry on working across borders are the ones already high up in the pecking order. So how is that helping anyone who’s been left behind? It’s actually cutting off opportunity, because unless they have money behind them, or they're able to do it through academia, then they’ll encounter obstacles.

Take DJs for example. A kid with a desire to DJ in a club or bar in Spain or a Greek island could have done that, the opportunity was there, many took it. Now those jobs will be taken by locals, or by youngsters from within the EU. How many young people spent their summers working behind a bar in Spain? Oddly working as a DJ or a dancer in Blackpool just doesn’t have the same air of romanticism about it.

Edited February 22, 2020 by ambient

[Cuzzie]

@ambient I will say thanks about the Eurostar knowledge and prices, it’s good intel on a trip I may need to make

[Rich]

3 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

@Rich agreed - but please be balanced in your quoting; I was merely responding to points on farming made by fellow BC'ers. 

Back to visas for musicians everyone.

If I'd quoted all the off topic posts, mine would have been 2 screens long. I did say it was a general 'you' and not just you.

[Cuzzie]

@Rich apologies for mine, I was typing whilst your request came on

[ambient]

3 minutes ago, Cuzzie said:

@ambient I will say thanks about the Eurostar knowledge and prices, it’s good intel on a trip I may need to make

https://www.seat61.com/index-mobile.htm

[Al Krow]

8 minutes ago, Rich said:

If I'd quoted all the off topic posts, mine would have been 2 screens long. I did say it was a general 'you' and not just you.

I know, I know  But you could have at least quoted two posts relating to any point on opposing sides, for balance, of a thus-far very civilised debate which I think we are all enjoying and maybe even at risk of 'hearing' each other!

The topic is indeed a big one and it doesn't fall into classic left / right territory. Face it - the B word is having a knock on to us BC'ers as musicians which it has been very good to understand, encompassing economics, culture, travel and the environment to name some of the themes coming out.

Edited February 22, 2020 by Al Krow

[Marvin]

In a time when recorded music is all but a waste of time monetarily, and live performance is the way ahead, putting up barriers for musicians is nothing short of vandalism.

[DoubleOhStephan]

@Cuzzie your Windrush reference is certainly hits at the emotive heart of the subject of freedom of movement.

As my wife's family is 1st gen, I saw first hand the deep hurt it caused the Caribbean folks and that, it was the rejection after being invited that was one of the most insulting things. 

I think it's fair to say that, everyone agrees that the Windrush scandal was a national disgrace and that those who represent us in gov made a huge and outrageous mistake.

Quite rightly, there was public outcry, the gov owned up, was full of apologies, changed the policy and agreed a £200m payout. 

That makes a very clear statement. 

It's another example of the gov changing policy after a direct order from the public. It's pure people power. 

How that relates to musicians is I think, by demonstrating that if a community of people get together and petition the gov, (especially now as the post 2021 immigration policy is still a work in progress), the gov could be made to improve on the concessions for artists. 

My reading of the situation is, that's exactly what the musician unions etal are planning for.

So far, they have only asked for clarification on a point in the policy. I would be confident that, if the unions don't get an answer they like, they'll go into proactive mode and will start garnering support to petition the government to change the policy. 

I feel like this is a solvable problem. The unions have enough public support to be able to drum up plenty of signatures to get it debated in parliament. 

[Cuzzie]

16 minutes ago, DoubleOhStephan said:

@Cuzzie your Windrush reference is certainly hits at the emotive heart of the subject of freedom of movement.

As my wife's family is 1st gen, I saw first hand the deep hurt it caused the Caribbean folks and that, it was the rejection after being invited that was one of the most insulting things. 

I think it's fair to say that, everyone agrees that the Windrush scandal was a national disgrace and that those who represent us in gov made a huge and outrageous mistake.

Quite rightly, there was public outcry, the gov owned up, was full of apologies, changed the policy and agreed a £200m payout. 

That makes a very clear statement. 

It's another example of the gov changing policy after a direct order from the public. It's pure people power. 

How that relates to musicians is I think, by demonstrating that if a community of people get together and petition the gov, (especially now as the post 2021 immigration policy is still a work in progress), the gov could be made to improve on the concessions for artists. 

My reading of the situation is, that's exactly what the musician unions etal are planning for.

So far, they have only asked for clarification on a point in the policy. I would be confident that, if the unions don't get an answer they like, they'll go into proactive mode and will start garnering support to petition the government to change the policy. 

I feel like this is a solvable problem. The unions have enough public support to be able to drum up plenty of signatures to get it debated in parliament. 

Thanks for your post.

i agree doing something is the right thing, especially when there is an outcry, however my fear is that actually if due consideration was given from the start, it should have been a non issue and never happened.

People in these positions don’t I think look at the whole picture and I am afraid that there will not be a public outcry for the arts and musicians and hence it won’t get sorted, or if it does, it will be so long that a current and future generation of arts/music related people will be put off or in a worse place.

Yep, you can call it doom and gloom, but if you build a system to be reactive as opposed to foreseeing and proactive, then that is what happens

[Al Krow]

1 hour ago, Marvin said:

In a time when recorded music is all but a waste of time monetarily, and live performance is the way ahead, putting up barriers for musicians is nothing short of vandalism.

Frankly there is no need for us to put these visa requirements and costs on overseas musicians coming to the UK.

FWIW the US has much higher barriers to entry and it has not killed its music scene there or more relevantly the music scene in Canada (unless I am mistaken about the latter). The relationship between Canada and the US is, in fact, a very good proxy for the relationship between the UK and EU, although we are significantly bigger economically, relatively speaking and also in absolute terms, than Canada is to the US. 

It's not as though I'm hearing cries of "oh great this will mean more work for British musicians". 

If you feel strongly about this, then be political! Write to your MPs and, as a musician, ask them why they are introducing this or ask them to challenge the government on this if they are an opposition MP. A letter received is considered to represent the views of a thousand constituents. 

@ambient @peteb - you chaps travel abroad to play a lot (something I have never done, I'm just a London and SE local performer). Why not put your heads together and draft a pro-forma letter that other folk can cut and paste? Maybe musicians unions are already on the case?

The truth may be more subtle than we realise eg this is being set up so that it can be bargained away in return for the EU not doing the same. Who knows. But great if UK musicians made it clear that they don't need their manor protected in this way. 

No point shouting at the tide not to come in. Much better to build a flood barrier. 

PS just seen @DoubleOhStephan's post above which seems to have landed on exactly the same conclusion. 

Edited February 22, 2020 by Al Krow

[Cuzzie]

I agree with writing and petitioning, there is a difference though for something being heard and something being ‘heard’.

Live music venues are closing all the time with increased pressures from residences that have sprung up around them and after the venue looking at Noise pollution.

When you have a venue as famous as The Fleece in Bristol which has housed Oasis, Emile Sande, Glenn Hughes, I think Amy Winehouse to name a few, which is almost in constant threat to close because the flats built up next to them were built without sound protection, hence the venue is at fault (absurd) and the fact that it could make valuable real estate - you know you are onto a loser, and this is a city with a supposed bubbling scene.

[DoubleOhStephan]

52 minutes ago, Cuzzie said:

Thanks for your post.

Ditto 🙂

52 minutes ago, Cuzzie said:

... when there is an outcry, however my fear is that actually if due consideration was given from the start, it should have been a non issue and never happened.

100% 

I'm not making a defence of the gov actions or outcomes, but all people get things wrong all the time. We're all trying to predict the future and consider every possible eventuality, this often leads to missing the obvious.

52 minutes ago, Cuzzie said:

People in these positions don’t I think look at the whole picture and I am afraid that there will not be a public outcry for the arts and musicians and hence it won’t get sorted, or if it does, it will be so long that a current and future generation of arts/music related people will be put off or in a worse place.

No, they don't see the big picture. They can't. They have no real insight into any industry, let alone the arts. That's why it's important for the unions to keep an eye on them and take the correct action as and when needed. 

I offer no special insight, but I tend to disagree about public outcry. There are plenty of musicians and actors who are very keen their political views are aired for public appreciation, I think they'll be lining up to take an opportunity to make their feelings against the gov known.

That alone may be enough to get a tweek to the concession. Going viral would help massively, reading twitter seems to be what passes for journalism these days so that gets it into the news. And so on... 

52 minutes ago, Cuzzie said:

Yep, you can call it doom and gloom, but if you build a system to be reactive as opposed to foreseeing and proactive, then that is what happens

I don't call it doom and gloom at all. There has clearly been a problem flagged up and it warrants investigation, we need to know exactly what's going on. 

Building a reactive system is conversely a proactive exercise. It's ability to react is only as good as the predictions being made and processes in place which dictate action in the event of a forseen issue. It's the unforseen issues that cause the problems. People can't predict all possible outcomes, the future is just too unpredictable and very often, the most obvious gets missed. 

Edited February 22, 2020 by DoubleOhStephan

[Owen]

1 hour ago, DoubleOhStephan said:

The unions have enough public support to be able to drum up plenty of signatures to get it debated in parliament. 

I would love to think that a well supported public petition would get Parliment to reconsider/change/whatever. Each and every one of the petitions I have signed that have crossed the threshold of "having to be considered" (and there have been many) have achieved the sum total of nothing. I am utterly voicless in matters relating to musician's visas and everything else. If the print media in the UK are not interested in musician's visas (or any other topic) then there is just no point in even discussing it. I am working hard to stay on topic here. 

[mcnach]

18 hours ago, Al Krow said:

Haha! To keep things fair, maybe also about time the English were given a vote on independence then too? They might decide that if they were of the view that £12 billion a year subs to the EU was too much, then keeping the £19 billion a year subs to the Scots might be even better!

They could then provide free visas to all English pro-musicians to travel all round the world (and free tuition fees for all English students for good measure) 😂 

 

you really need to stop reading only The Telegraph, and look at the figures elsewhere too...

[mcnach]

18 hours ago, Al Krow said:

Yeah perhaps they should. It's just that the Scots had a "once in a generation / lifetime" vote on independence only a couple of years beforehand and decided they wanted to be part of the Union. Democracy eh? 

 

with a VERY strong factor being that in order to remain in the EU, staying in the UK was the best choice.

That was also very well documented and the 62% vote pro-remain illustrates that.

While this is pure anecdote and without statistical value, I've come across many people who voted no to independence who now feel otherwise, and not a single one the other way. The way that Scotland is portrayed down South does not help matters either. 

You want democracy? Me too. It's not a democracy when lies are used to achieve political goals, and when those lies are uncovered nobody gets punished for that.

[Woodinblack]

13 minutes ago, owen said:

I would love to think that a well supported public petition would get Parliment to reconsider/change/whatever. Each and every one of the petitions I have signed that have crossed the threshold of "having to be considered" (and there have been many) have achieved the sum total of nothing. I am utterly voicless in matters relating to musician's visas and everything else. If the print media in the UK are not interested in musician's visas (or any other topic) then there is just no point in even discussing it. I am working hard to stay on topic here. 

I would agree entirely on that. I have done a few petitions and all of them have come back with 'thanks for signing the petition, the government have considered it and decided that we are going to do what we want anyway'. Now the government have a huge majority I don't think they even have to pretend that they care about anything outside their agenda any more.

I am utterly voiceless too, never more so, and it seems so far non aligned with peoples wishes (in that I don't even understand them), that it seems for the first time in my life, there actually is no point in trying to get involved in anything.

[mcnach]

16 hours ago, RedVee said:

I would say the majority would be doing it for the money over academic artistic practice.

 

"I want to be rich, that's why I will become a musician" said nobody ever

[Cuzzie]

 I agree with writing and petitioning, there is a difference though for something being heard and something being ‘heard’.

Live music venues are closing all the time with increased pressures from residences that have sprung up around them and after the venue looking at Noise pollution.

When you have a venue as famous as The Fleece in Bristol which has housed Oasis, Emile Sande, Glenn Hughes, I think Amy Winehouse to name a few, which is almost in constant threat to close because the flats built up next to them were built without sound protection, hence the venue is at fault (absurd) and the fact that it could make valuable real estate - you know you are onto a loser, and this is a city with a supposed bubbling scene.

Are issues unforeseen or not considered if brought to light

[Lozz196]

1 hour ago, Cuzzie said:

I agree with writing and petitioning, there is a difference though for something being heard and something being ‘heard’.

Live music venues are closing all the time with increased pressures from residences that have sprung up around them and after the venue looking at Noise pollution.

When you have a venue as famous as The Fleece in Bristol which has housed Oasis, Emile Sande, Glenn Hughes, I think Amy Winehouse to name a few, which is almost in constant threat to close because the flats built up next to them were built without sound protection, hence the venue is at fault (absurd) and the fact that it could make valuable real estate - you know you are onto a loser, and this is a city with a supposed bubbling scene.

The Fleece is a great venue, totally ridiculous putting those flats up there. Played many a good gig at The Fleece, one of the venues I will miss now I’m no longer gigging.

Edited February 22, 2020 by Lozz196

[BigRedX]

To stay on the OT.

It's easy for people like @Al Krow and @DoubleOhStephan to be optimistic about the situation when in all likelihood this proposal will have zero impact on their musical income and ambitions. Maybe if there is a massive hike in price for tickets for UK gigs for some European-based artist that they like they'll have a bit of moan on the internet, but that will be it.

The reality is that no-one will really know what the real impact is until it actual happens and has been in place a year or so, but the chance are it won't be good for musicians or the UK music scene, especially since selling recordings is no longer a viable income stream for any but the most popular artists, and for everyone else playing live is the main source of income.

The only goof thing is that this is still only a proposal and there is a chance that it will be negotiated away. We can only hope.

[Cuzzie]

The pinch is already there.

Gigs are all in the 20-40 squid bracket for venues like The Fleece up to the O2 academy in Bristol and surrounding areas, a lot of the time closer to £40.

For up and coming bands/nights £15-20, which if you are taking a punt on seeing new music is a lot of money, crikey in my youth Pearl Jam played the International II in Manchester for under a tenner, House of Pain, Funk Doobiest and Cypress Hill toured together and it was about £15.

Those days are gone now