1x10“ cabinet versus 1x12” cabinet

[thebassist]

What are the main differences between 1x10” cabinets and 1x12” cabinets folks?

And would you say a 1x10” cabinet can produce 50%, 60%, 70%, 80% of the volume that a 1x12” cabinet can deliver?

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

A twelve has 1.6 times the cone displacement as a ten. That translates to a difference in maximum SPL of about 5dB. Twice the displacement gives an increase in maximum SPL of 6dB, so a pair of tens could be slightly louder in maximum output than one twelve. But that's all else being equal, which it never is.

Twice the volume is 10dB.

Edited February 26, 2020 by Bill Fitzmaurice

[Owen]

Anecdotaly I can report that no 10" cab I have tried can actually cut it when a drummer is involved. Some 12" cabs can but that also depends on the amp's ability to deliver proper power. It is also VERY rare (again, in my experience) for a 10" cab to be able to reach all the way down there on a 5 string even when not fighting with a drummer. YMMV

[thebassist]

Thanks a lot. Unfortunately not what I wanted to read but what I expected frankly.

I was hoping to switch out my two 1x12”s with two 1x10s due to size/weight but given I play post-rock and it gets loud in places I just don’t think I’m going to be able to do that.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

It depends on the two 1x12s and the two 1x10s. Like I said, nothing is ever equal. There are some tens that have as much, or even more, displacement as some twelves. The trick lies in finding out the displacement of the drivers you have and of those that you're contemplating. It's of far more consequence than watts, but manufacturers are loath to reveal it.

[Beedster]

10 hours ago, Bill Fitzmaurice said:

But that's all else being equal, which it never is.

A statement that should be placed in every equipment-based thread on this and other gear forums

[thebassist]

Thanks a lot for your help folks. I really appreciate it.

I use two Trickfish Bullhead 1K heads that drive two Trickfish TF112 cabinets (I play in stereo) and would really like to switch to two Trickfish TF110 cabinets.

I got this from their web site but I'm not knowledgeable enough to know how this really translates with volume, etc.

TF112 Specifications:

• https://www.trickfishamps.com/cabinets/tf112/
• 1 x 12” proprietary Neodymium speaker built by Eminence®
• HF driver (3500-20,000 Hz) 80° conical horn
• 300 watts peak handling
• Custom crossover with peak protection and HF Attenuation
• 2 x NL2 Combo connectors
• Baltic Birch
• Dado and Rabbet Joint Construction
• 8 ohms
• Freq. Resp. 35Hz – 16kHz
• Metal handles, metal corners, rubber feet
• 16 gauge steel grille
• 22 oz. sharkskin vinyl
• H 14 7/8 x W 19 x D 18
• Weight: 36.2 lbs
• Made in the USA

TF110 Specifications:

• https://www.trickfishamps.com/cabinets/tf110/
• Eminence 1 x 10” Neo speaker
• HF driver (3000-20,000 Hz) Neo, Silk Dome Tweeter 90⁰ Conical
• 300 watts peak handling
• Custom 2nd order low pass and 2nd order high pass with peak protection
• 2 x NL2 Combo connectors
• Baltic Birch
• Dado and Rabbet Joint Construction
• 8 ohms
• Freq. Resp. 50Hz – 18.4kHz
• Heavy Duty Leather Handle
• Metal corners, rubber feet
• 16 gauge steel grille
• 22 oz. sharkskin vinyl
• H 13” x W 15.5” x D 12.5”
• Weight: 21.6 lbs
• Made in the USA

Edited February 27, 2020 by thebassist

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

Since they're both from the same manufacturer and the twelve costs more than the ten it's a very safe bet than the drivers are similar save for size. The likelihood that the ten has as much or more displacement as the twelve is nil. If it did the ten inch driver would be a more expensive driver than the twelve, so the two cabs would be equally priced, and the ten would have a higher power rating as well.

I got this from their web site but I'm not knowledgeable enough to know how this really translates with volume, etc

It doesn't. Like a ladies sewing circle there's lots of talk, but they don't actually say anything.

[thebassist]

9 minutes ago, Bill Fitzmaurice said:

Since they're both from the same manufacturer and the twelve costs more than the ten it's a very safe bet than the drivers are similar save for size. The likelihood that the ten has as much or more displacement as the twelve is nil. If it did the ten inch driver would be a more expensive driver than the twelve, so the two cabs would be equally priced, and the ten would have a higher power rating as well.

 

It doesn't. Like a ladies sewing circle there's lots of talk, but they don't actually say anything.

Thanks a lot Bill - you've been real helpful mate.

I use a six-string so considering the low B is around 31hHz and the TF110 handles lows of 50Hz whereas the TF112 handles lows of 35Hz, I think I'm asking the impossible.

[Owen]

Added to all this, selling the 12"s  2nd hand and buying new 10" is actually going to cost you for poorer perfomance.

[Chienmortbb]

21 minutes ago, thebassist said:

Thanks a lot Bill - you've been real helpful mate.

I use a six-string so considering the low B is around 31hHz and the TF110 handles lows of 50Hz whereas the TF112 handles lows of 35Hz, I think I'm asking the impossible.

The crucial frequencies are double the fundamentals, so 62Hz for a low B. Most of the sound is in the harmonics and the fundamentals can be the cause of wollyness or boominess. I have to be honest that both those cabs look overpriced for the performance.

Edited February 27, 2020 by Chienmortbb

[thebassist]

1 hour ago, owen said:

Added to all this, selling the 12"s  2nd hand and buying new 10" is actually going to cost you for poorer perfomance.

I do get you - it's the weight and awkward shape of the 12s though - my shoulders are shot.

 

Edited February 27, 2020 by thebassist

[thebassist]

12 minutes ago, Chienmortbb said:

The crucial frequencies are double the fundamentals, so 62Hz for a low B. Most of the sound is in the harmonics and the fundamentals can be the cause of wollyness or boominess. I have to be honest that both those cabs look overpriced for the performance.

This highlights how poor my understanding is so thanks a lot for your input. So if the crucial frequencies are double the fundamentals meaning a low B is 62Hz, do you think a 1x10" (and the TF110 specifically having a frequency response of 50Hz - 18.4kHz) will handle the low B okay? Ultimately, I confess that I think I'm going to have to plan a trip to some place and try a couple out.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

1 hour ago, thebassist said:

Thanks a lot Bill - you've been real helpful mate.

I use a six-string so considering the low B is around 31hHz and the TF110 handles lows of 50Hz whereas the TF112 handles lows of 35Hz, I think I'm asking the impossible.

As long as you're getting educated:

https://www.puremix.net/blog/musical-instruments.html

[fretmeister]

On 26/02/2020 at 20:34, owen said:

Anecdotaly I can report that no 10" cab I have tried can actually cut it when a drummer is involved. Some 12" cabs can but that also depends on the amp's ability to deliver proper power. It is also VERY rare (again, in my experience) for a 10" cab to be able to reach all the way down there on a 5 string even when not fighting with a drummer. YMMV

I use a 1x10 with a drummer, and another 20 brass and reeds players too. 

 

No no issues at all.

[onehandclapping]

I had a Barefaced midget...12 and a Barefaced 10 ,I did not like them at all together.I do a small gig so I tried the 12 for the first set and the 10 for the next.I kept the 12 and sold the 10.I normally use a Barefaced super twin which I love..had a gig I hate last night and could not be bothered luggin the super up the lift so used the midget and survived...band is drums,sax and guitar..not real loud but not real soft either

[thebassist]

I know this won’t be to people’s taste but here is a snippet of what we do - this is a louder section of course - it’s a low B/fifth/octave through two delay pedals, a reverb and a bass distortion.

I play in stereo with two Trickfish Bullhead 1Ks that each drive one Trickfish TF112 cabinet each. Amazing equipment but I just don’t think two 1x10s will be able to get close to what I need.

[Owen]

12 hours ago, fretmeister said:

I use a 1x10 with a drummer, and another 20 brass and reeds players too. 

 

No no issues at all.

Fair enough. 

[LukeFRC]

41 minutes ago, thebassist said:

I know this won’t be to people’s taste but here is a snippet of what we do - this is a louder section of course - it’s a low B/fifth/octave through two delay pedals, a reverb and a bass distortion.

I play in stereo with two Trickfish Bullhead 1Ks that each drive one Trickfish TF112 cabinet each. Amazing equipment but I just don’t think two 1x10s will be able to get close to what I need.

Odd question - how does the audience hear the stereo? Do you run a cab on each side of the stage? 

[thebassist]

18 minutes ago, LukeFRC said:

Odd question - how does the audience hear the stereo? Do you run a cab on each side of the stage? 

I do yes - one cabinet is to my right and the other cabinet is to the left of the drummer. I use a ping-pong delay effect a fair amount so it is quite noticeable live. It’s not all real loud like that - here is a much quieter excerpt.

Edited February 29, 2020 by thebassist

[Balcro]

Your task in evaluating what's needed vis a vis 10 or 12, (reference to BFM's post on Wednesday 19.20) is made all the more difficult by the really poor "specifications" listed on theTrickfish web-site.

The TF112 is quoted as handling 300w peak. Does that mean it's only 150w RMS or even as low as 75w RMS!!  Confusing frequency response shown as 35Hz - 16K listed alongside mention of a 12" neo custom speaker from Eminence; that range is for a combined 12" bass & compression driver. Plus or minus how much? It doesn't say. Probably + or -12 or greater  and the compression driver is quoted as extending to 20K!!

There's no statement of general efficiency so you have no clue as to how loud it will go!

There are some good things built-in such as Peak Protection, HF attenuation, and a sophisticated EQ, but overall the specification hides more than it reveals. A specification written by the marketing side of the business.

The half size 0.5 Bullhead amp is differently described as having "continuous power" while your 1K Bullhead has "peak power". These descriptions are again deceptive and in Europe they are misleading.

I would advise you to e-mail Trickfish and ask for the output power rating for the 1K Bullhead in wattage units AES (Audio Engineering Society based in New York) or the wattage units RMS at the lowest level of distortion.

Likewise,  for the power handling of the TF112 - AES or RMS. Additionally, request a statement of efficiency such as 96dB @ 1W @ 1m.

If weight is more an issue than bass volume, then you need to get a sack barrow / trolley preferably with pneumatic tyres. The models with 3 rotating sets wheels for going up & down stairs could be beneficial.

[LukeFRC]

...Or not bother and buy a barefaced/Mesa or another brand who actually give you specs you are asking for.

It’s not like there’s any special sauce in trickfish (or any other brand) that makes them stand out miles above the competition...

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

Business marketing 101, you don't sell the steak, you sell the sizzle. However, with some due diligence you can tell if the steak is a prime cut of filet or a cheap cut of chuck. The Trickfish ad copy says they use Eminence neo drivers. That narrows down the possibilities to Basslite, Deltalite II or Kappalite frames and motors. They claim 300 peak (which is in itself a red flag) power handling. That narrows it down to Basslites. They won't be off the shelf Basslite 2010, or 2012 , but with a given frame and motor you can only do so much. In many cases the only difference between an off the shelf Eminence and an OEM is that the OEM has spade connectors rather than spring loaded binding posts, and the reason for that is spade connectors are cheaper. All available evidence points to Barefaced twelve inch drivers having a Kappalite frame and motor.  That's hugely different from the Basslite.

[Dan Dare]

"you don't sell the steak, you sell the sizzle". I like that a lot, Bill. I've always wondered whether spade connectors are actually better. They may not be as swish as spring-loaded ones, but a decent solder joint is a pretty reliable thing. 

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

OEMs usually use spades because they're cheaper. In-line drivers tend to use spring loaded binding posts because they're preferred by the DIY crowd. There's no particular advantage to one or the other.