Barefaced Big Baby 800W RMS: How?!

[chyc]

I've been looking around various cabinet manufacturers and their 1x12 offerings. One thing that has struck me is that no other manufacturer can get close to the RMS wattage that a Barefaced cabinet can take.

The Super Compact is 600W rms

The Super Midget (a 1x12 with a tweeter) is 600W rms

The Big Baby (a 1x12 with a seemingly different tweeter) is 800W rms

How are these numbers possible? I cannot find a single 1x12 driver on the market that is specced for 600W rms let along 800W. Do Barefaced make their own drivers using a secret sauce known only to them? Is the tweeter on the Big Baby really able to soak in an extra 200W or is the bigger cabinet allowing for better cooling? Going by the wattage differential of their 2x12 cabs with/without tweeter it would appear to be the latter, although can that really be true?

I guess you could just put some passive electronics in the cabinet to technically be able to handle 800W when in fact it's just heating the room, but I cannot yet see the purpose of doing something like that.

What am I missing?

[chyc]

As if by magic, I've found a driver that can handle 800W rms, the Eminence LA12850

It's not a neodymium magnet though, and it has a much narrower frequency range than the Super Compact's advertized 30Hz-4kHz. That 30Hz is another area that I'm struggling to find a matching driver online, but I'll save that for another thread

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

While the LA12850 has an 800w thermal rating the 5mm xmax limits it to 300w through much of the critical midbass range. Watts alone don't tell you everything you need to know.

[machinehead]

Interesting thread. 

Frank.

[Al Krow]

6 hours ago, machinehead said:

Interesting thread. 

Frank.

My thoughts exactly! 

[grandad]

Reading the technical info' on the BF website the 12XN550 driver has a 500W thermal power handling.

Recommended amplifier power rating can be higher.

https://barefacedbass.com/technical-information/12XN550.htm

https://barefacedbass.com/technical-information/understanding-power-handling.htm

Edited February 27, 2020 by grandad
Extra info'.

[chyc]

9 hours ago, Bill Fitzmaurice said:

...the 5mm xmax limits it to 300w through much of the critical midbass range. Watts alone don't tell you everything you need to know.

Agreed. My kettle is rated at 3000W, but it just doesn't have the response that I like. I cannot find the xmax of the Barefaced driver.

Actually scratch that, my kettle is more musical than some cabinets I've heard.

53 minutes ago, grandad said:

Reading the technical info' on the BF website the 12XN550 driver has a 500W thermal power handling.

Recommended amplifier power rating can be higher.

https://barefacedbass.com/technical-information/12XN550.htm

How on earth did you find that?! It's a useful read. So 600W is the linear excursion limit rather than the thermal limit. I'm sure someone will correct me, but that's not the same thing as 600W rms no? The rms implies to me that 600W would be the thermal limit.Also, I don't know where the competitors' numbers on that page come from. I've looked at the specs on their respective official websites and the Deltalite II 2512 has a sensitivity of 99.9dB. The 12PR300 has a sensitivity of 99dB.

Frequency range on those rival drivers cannot compete with the Barefaced, although I note this range (30Hz-4kHz) isn't on the 12XN550 page that grandad posted.

Also, this doesn't explain how adding a tweeter can boost the rating by 200W to make 800W. I'm imagining two incandescent 100W lightbulbs in a box.

Edited February 27, 2020 by chyc

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

4 hours ago, chyc said:

Frequency range on those rival drivers cannot compete with the Barefaced, although I note this range (30Hz-4kHz) isn't on the 12XN550 page that grandad posted.

Is that range quantified by a measured SPL chart? If not you have no idea what the tolerance is. +/-3dB is one thing, +/-10dB is something else entirely.

[itu]

This thread is again one of those "gimme 31.5 Hz @ 1 kW, and quickly". These numbers tell very little about loudness, or performance of an amp or a cab.

I already do hate simple wattage. I do not like Hz. I do not want to read the acronym FRFR. I would love to see some numbers that relate to the real world, not the stuff Marketing departments make for their own fun.

One simple number = one simple bassist.

Audio frequency range is 20 - 20 000 Hz. Loudness is dependent on the frequency the speaker system can provide. It is dependent on the amp's ability to drive the cab. It is not the impedance. It is not just one or two numbers.

The honorable Mr. Fitzmaurice could write a short sticky about these audio numbers for the simple bassist, please!

[chyc]

47 minutes ago, Bill Fitzmaurice said:

Is that range quantified by a measured SPL chart? If not you have no idea what the tolerance is. +/-3dB is one thing, +/-10dB is something else entirely.

I cannot see anything about tolerances on the Barefaced website. Eminence define their "usable frequency range" in the most handwavy way I have seen.

Quote

This is the frequency range for which Eminence feels the transducer will prove useful. Manufacturers use different techniques for determining ‘Usable Frequency Range’. Most methods are recognized as acceptable in the industry, but can arrive at different results. Technically, many loudspeakers are used to produce frequencies in ranges where they would theoretically be of little use. As frequencies increase, the off-axis coverage of a transducer decreases relative to its diameter. At a certain point, the coverage becomes ‘beamy’ or narrow like the beam of a flashlight. If you’ve ever stood in front of a guitar amplifier or speaker cabinet, then moved slightly to one side or the other and noticed a different sound, you have experienced this phenomenon and are now aware of why it occurs. Clearly, most two-way enclosures ignore the theory and still perform quite well. The same is true for many guitar amplifiers, but it is useful to know at what point you can expect a compromise in coverage.

Even with this most generous of definitions of usable frequency range they've given themselves, I cannot see any 12" below 40Hz (except for the LAB12, which I'm discounting as it has a range from 25Hz-100Hz).To Eminence's credit, that's more than I can find on Faital's website or datasheets.

In any case, from what you're saying Bill, I'm inferring that these numbers that are on Barefaced's website are absolutely meaningless without bounding from other parameters. You've also got me wondering on how the BF range is quantified as I cannot find that mentioned anywhere

[chyc]

14 minutes ago, itu said:

This thread is again one of those "gimme 31.5 Hz @ 1 kW, and quickly". These numbers tell very little about loudness, or performance of an amp or a cab.

That's not what I'm asking. What I want to know is why Barefaced's numbers are so different to every other manufacturer out there. Have they got some secret that nobody else knows about?

The numbers they give don't tell the whole story, I get that.  So why mention them? And even if they don't tell the whole story, how can adding extra cabinet space via a tweeter increase the handling by  200W?

 

[gjones]

I assumed the Super Compact specifications, on the Barefaced website,  meant that you could put a 600w amp through it at 8 ohms.

You won't get 600w out of it though.

[GisserD]

im willing to bet cash money that a one call to bobby or alex at barefaced will give you a straight and reliable answer.

[chyc]

12 minutes ago, GisserD said:

im willing to bet cash money that a one call to bobby or alex at barefaced will give you a straight and reliable answer.

Good suggestion! If I can find a spare moment I'll give them a call to find out how they're calculating these numbers.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

48 minutes ago, chyc said:

 Eminence define their "usable frequency range" in the most handwavy way I have seen.

That's because at least half the result is based on the enclosure. Eminence can't give hard and fast numbers on the driver data sheet because they don't know what enclosure you're going to put the driver into. But you can figure it out, as least where Eminence is concerned. The data sheet SPL shows what the driver will do above roughly 200Hz. Go to the Cabinet Design pdf link on the driver catalog page. There you'll see the result below 200Hz in various cabinets. Ignore the charts above 200Hz in the cabinet design pdf. The charts are generated with speaker modeling software that's only accurate to 200Hz. Splice the pdf chart below 200Hz to the data sheet chart about 200Hz to see the full range result. That's the kind of chart that all speakers should have in their catalogs. The Eminence pdf also shows Maximum Acoustical and Maximum Input Power, which take into account both the thermal and mechanical limits, and Cone Displacement at full thermal power. The cone displacement chart is a bit deceiving,  as it shows in grey how far the cone would travel if it was able to. What the grey line really shows is how much distortion rises as the cone tries to do what it cannot.

Edited February 27, 2020 by Bill Fitzmaurice

[chyc]

22 minutes ago, Bill Fitzmaurice said:

Go to the Cabinet Design pdf link on the driver catalog page.

My estimation of Eminence has shot up considerably. Those PDFs are incredibly insightful for someone like me with no access to their Eminence Designer software. Off topic but you've given me a lot to digest. Thanks.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

I don't use Eminence Designer. I use WinISD 0.7 freeware for sealed and ported cabs.

[ead]

I've been using BF cabs for years.  I started off with a long convdrsation with Alex and ended up with the old style Midget/Compact set up powered by a MB500 amp which was great (not using a PA bass cab at that stage).

Now we are putting the bass through the PA bass bins I have switched to a simple Super Compact (occasionally a Big Baby T) driven by a GB Streamliner.  Occasionally both if we are just taking the tops along.

I never really looked at the numbers in detail just what it sounded like and a lot of great advice from Alex.

[Beedster]

Without wishing to disagree with experts - or possibly agree with them but without the requisite expertise for that to carry any weight  - numbers rarely tell you anything meaningful about music, and making music is why we need cabs. As Bill said in another thread, ‘all other things being equal’ is often mentioned when trying to draw comparisons or quantify sound, but AOTBE is rarely a realistic scenario. I guess what I’m trying to say is that I’m not sure that the numbers in question make a whole lot of difference in the real world. My 30w B-15 shouldn’t have been able to fill a decent sized room with about 150 people but did, while my 300w PJB rig should have been able to do so without missing a beat but failed miserably (same room). I long ago gave up worrying about numbers, I try stuff and if it work I keep it, if it doesn’t I sell it (and my sales record here suggests that most hasn’t worked for me). However, my two Barefaced cabs are both phenomenal in terms of tone and volume. My band can hear me, I can hear me, and audiences can hear me, and it sounds as good as it ever will given I’m playing it. They’re the metrics I worry about. 

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

When there's a disagreement between the data and the real world result it's almost always because the data is incomplete, or just plain wrong. I know a B-15 can do what you say, because I used to have one. If all you look at is watts then a Vox AC30 shouldn't be able to take off heads at 30 meters, but I know from experience that it can. These are just two examples of why watts alone tell you next to nothing, while most of the data that does tell you what you need to know to make meaningful real world comparisons isn't available. 

[stevie]

It's sad that the average bassist can't evaluate cabinets by comparing their manufacturer's specs. It should be possible, but it isn't. That's because the manufacturers don't provide specs in a usable format. There are standards for power handling, but hardly anyone quotes them. It makes more business sense to exaggerate.

So when Barefaced say their cab is 600W rms or 800W rms depending on which way the wind's blowing, how does that compare with the 600W cabs from, say, Vanderkley? Well, Vanderkley's power ratings are to AES spec, which may not be perfect for our purposes, but at least it's a standard. So I can compare the (thermal) power handling of a Vanderkley cab with any other cab that uses the AES standard. Which is how it should be.

Another example of a manufacturer who has tried hard to provide meaningful specs is Mesa Boogie. Although they don't actually say so, Mesa also use the AES spec for power handling. And although they don't provide frequency response curves, their low frequency extension figures are informative.

In the PA world, most good vendors supply detailed specifications about their products which, by and large, are accurate and useful. That's because an important section of their target market are professionals who know whether the manufacturer is telling the truth. So the manufacturers, on the whole, don't lie because doing so harms their reputation. This is why Behringer, for example, has such a poor reputation in the professional sound reinforcement world.

So, to get back to the OP's question. Why would a supposedly 500W driver morph into a 600W driver when you put it into a cabinet and into an 800W driver when you add a tweeter? Fair question. To find out, you need to ask another question: what standard are they applying to their specs? If they (or anyone else) don't quote a recognised standard or specify their measurement process, their figures are meaningless, i.e. they're making it up.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[stevie]

The Bergantino CN212 contains two drivers rated by the manufacturer at 300W AES. I know because I've seen what they use. Bergantino rate their speaker at 700W. Why?

Edited February 28, 2020 by stevie

[paulbuzz]

To be fair to Alex/Barefaced, I think the OP has misinterpreted the information they give about their cabinets.

I'm pretty sure that they don't claim anywhere that the Super Compact is "rated at 600W RMS" or the Big Baby "rated at 800W RMS".
Instead, these figures are given as the top end of the range of output power of amplifiers that they recommend for use with these cabinets.

Admittedly this is different to the way in which most cabinet manufacturers talk about the specs of their products, but there is a reason for this: the reason is that the traditional/usual practice of quoting a single "rated power handling" figure for a speaker cabinet is unsatisfactory and misleading for a number of reasons.

This is illustrated by several of the points made by Bill and other posters upthread.

So, as I understand it, Alex at Barefaced decided instead on the more nuanced (but arguably more vague!) set of descriptions used on the Barefaced website. I always got the impression that this was a genuine attempt to be less misleading than cab manufacturers have often been with their specs. Unfortunately, in this case at least, this approach seems to have led to increased confusion, rather than enlightenment...!

As a self-confessed enthusiast for this kind of tech-talk, Alex has engaged in discussing this stuff repeatedly over the years; here on Basschat, on the Barefaced website, and in magazine articles. I'm sure his views on these matters will still be there somewhere on the Barefaced website.

Edited February 28, 2020 by paulbuzz

[paulbuzz]

A few relevant articles from the Barefaced website - there are a whole load of others...!

https://barefacedbass.com/technical-information/understanding-power-handling.htm

https://barefacedbass.com/technical-information/recommended-amp-power.htm

https://barefacedbass.com/uploads/BGM68 Jul2011.pdf

[Dan Dare]

I agree with Stevie and Bill. Could the answer be that these cabs can handle the output of a typical "800W" amp, because that amp is only actually capable of delivering a burst of that wattage at a narrowly defined frequency range and over a few milliseconds?  An amplifier that could deliver 800W RMS continuously over a wide range of frequencies would smoke them, but that doesn't happen in the real world because such a beast probably doesn't exist. As stated above, watts alone are pretty meaningless. Some manufacturers, such as Naim Audio (before you say it, I appreciate that they don't design kit for musicians), rate amplifiers on their ability to deliver current, rather than wattage. Would that be a more realistic measure?