police squad Posted March 3, 2020 Share Posted March 3, 2020 I'm thinking of going wireless for vocals, Shure do an analogue and a digital system Does anyone have an opinion or experience with them. Is digital better? etc etc cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noisyjon Posted March 3, 2020 Share Posted March 3, 2020 There will be a slight latency (probably un-noticable) with the digital mic's but that's about it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted March 3, 2020 Share Posted March 3, 2020 You are best tagging @EBS_freak in this thread. What models are you looking at? Pro or consumer grade? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
police squad Posted March 3, 2020 Author Share Posted March 3, 2020 44 minutes ago, BigRedX said: You are best tagging @EBS_freak in this thread. What models are you looking at? Pro or consumer grade? I'm looking at the Shure Beta 58 stuff. The BLX24 with beta 58 (analogue) and the GLXD24/beta 58A It's for mainly pubs and the occasional bigger gig. I used to have a shure wireless SM58 back in 1990 and it was great. I currently sing using the Beta58 with a lead, so want to stick with the Beta58 as I have grown very used to it thanks for your help Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted March 3, 2020 Share Posted March 3, 2020 (edited) Hopefully @EBS_freak will be along with some more detailed insights but the situation is basically this: The analogue system will use compander techniques to compress the audio signal for transmission and then expand it again before sending to the desk. This will result in some degradation of the audio - you won't get the full frequency or dynamic range of the original audio signal. Also depending on the broadcast frequencies and the country(s) you are intending to use it in you might need to buy a licence. The digital version operates on the 2.4GHz frequency which is the same as WiFi. The transmitted signal will be full frequency and dynamic range within the restrictions of the AD-DA converters. There will be a slight amount of latency compared with the analogue version (I couldn't find any figures on the Shure web site). What is more important is the potential for interference from other users in the WiFi frequency - that's every member of your audience with a smart phone trying to get on Facebook etc. To many competing devices and the system will simply stop working. Any chance of being able to try each version at a gig? That way you will get a better idea of which system is going to work best for you. Edited March 3, 2020 by BigRedX Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike257 Posted March 3, 2020 Share Posted March 3, 2020 Unless you can afford seriously high end digital, I'd stay analogue. Too many issues in the 2.4GHz band. My suggestion would be to get the best analogue setup you can afford. Although you're comfortable with Shure, I'd strongly suggest a look at Sennheiser radio kit. For the same price as a brand new BLX, you could pick up a used Sennheiser G3 system which is much better radio kit and still in regular use on pro stages. The Sennheiser handhelds can take interchangeable capsules and there's heads corresponding to most of their wired handheld range. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EBS_freak Posted March 3, 2020 Share Posted March 3, 2020 (edited) Hola - I'd echo mike257 status above. A lot of the stuff covers off what I would say at a high level. Digital - In short, 2.4Ghz works but can suffer from drop outs when a room full of mobile phones looking for open wifi spots enters the room (e.g. so what works at soundcheck may cause you grief when the audience piles in) 5Ghz is better - what it gives up in range (assuming like for like transmission power compared to 2.4Ghz) it gains in there being more intermodulation free (e.g. interference free). Unlike 2.4Ghz, there aren't many 5Ghz systems around, certainly not from the more reputable manufacturers. Digital on channel 38 is best... but not common place unless you are investing in higher priced systems. For Shure, you are looking at the QLXD and ULXD as the cheapest (but not cheap) systems. Take a deep breath and click on this link - https://www.thomann.de/gb/shure_qlxd24_beta58_k51.htm (shared mic license = cost associated for license ) and this link - https://www.bax-shop.co.uk/wireless-handheld-microphones/shure-qlxd24-beta-58a-s50-823-832-and-863-865-mhz-handheld (free for use license) for an idea... and then think about adding another 6 or 7 hundred on top for ULX-D. I should point out, this is touring grade spec equipment - and hence are robust against mobile phones and wifi routers! Digital introduces latency as it has an analogue to digital conversion for the transmission and then digital back to analogue* (assuming that you haven't got something like a Dante enabled desk that keeps things in the digital domain) before going into the preamps in your desk. Depending upon the system, this latency should be kept as low as possible, especially if using in ears. Remember that latency is cumulative... so if you have a chain of digital devices, they will all add latency into the chain (for example a digital mic, into a digital vocal processor, into a digital desk will introduce 3 cumulative stages of latency). The latency could be the difference between a delay being not being able to be detected to completely unusable because it will sound like a delay has been put onto your vocal. As an idea, cumulative latency for a signal chain should aim to be under 8ms. I would say a mic with a latency of 3ms or under is good. Analogue - tends to be cheaper... but also cheaper analogue tends to be terrible due to the companders that have been mentioned above. Some systems have very transparent companders, others are terrible - leading to fuzzies, a lack of lows and most noticeable, harsh highs. Unless you can afford a decent analogue system, I would say stay away... however, if you can stretch to a decent analogue system, they are probably the best way to go. As mike above mentioned, the Sennheiser EW100, EW300 and EW500 are worth investigating. A G2, G3 or G4 will all do a great job (particularly G3+). For small venues, I'd stay away from condenser capsules - so you are looking at 835, 935 and 845, 945 capsules. The 845 and 945 are most closely linked to the Beta 58 - personally, I think the Sennheiser x35 and x45 smash the 58s into oblivion. There is a reason they are one of the most commonly seen analogue radio mics in use. They simply sound great and the radio element of the system is arguably still amongst the best in the business. So what would I do? Well, I actually run both ULXDs and EW300/EW500s. My vocal mics are all Sennheiser analogue. Body pack systems are ULXD. If I had to choose the best mic system for the money, I would look at a EW100 with a 935 on channel 38. If all of this is too much, then a Sennheiser D1(ew D1-945-EU) or GLXD24/beta 58A will do you - just make sure that you have a wired mic as back up (which you should always have anyway) and don't be too disappointed if you have to revert to wired due to interference issues. For a lot of people, they will never have any issues. If you are in a band that plays next to office blocks with lots of wifi, or conference centres/hotels, don't be surprised and expect the worse. It should be noted however, the single most reason why bands have a nightmare problem with wireless is that they aren't co-ordinated in what they buy. For example, the guitarist buys a random radio system, then the other guitarist, then the bass player gets something completely different... and these systems won't magically play nicely with one another. If you want to something to work out the box for the whole band, settle on one digital system (be it Line 6, Shure, Sennheiser) or whatever and then simply select individual channels - and the chances are things will just work. If you want to run lots of different brands of digital systems, you will run into problems, unless you have the problems to select discrete frequencies as opposed to presets that can't be fine tuned. Similar, if you go analogue, if you stick with one brand and model, you should be able to use a set of frequencies that are designed to work together. On the higher end stuff, you can fine tune all these systems (even of different types and brands) to be intermodulation free (e.g. channels free of interfering with one other) - and this can be quite a complex task and is generally worked out by software. Theses systems typically start at an entry point of the like of analogue EW300 and EW500 and ULX, (analogue) ULXD and QLXD (upwards to Axient) - and their prices reflect that versatility and capability. So to sum up, if your band wants to go wireless, get your heads together and subscribe to a common brand and model... this may also influence your choice if other elements in the band are already wireless. If there is already other wireless in the band, especially systems that have preset frequencies, there's no guarantees of them all playing together nicely! Hope this helps (if it hasn't totally confused you!) Edited March 3, 2020 by EBS_freak 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EBS_freak Posted March 3, 2020 Share Posted March 3, 2020 5 hours ago, BigRedX said: There will be a slight amount of latency compared with the analogue version (I couldn't find any figures on the Shure web site). GLXD is 4 ms minimum, 7.3 ms maximum ULXD/QLXD is 2.9ms Just for completeness, analogue latency is way sub 1ms... (e.g. as good as 0ms) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
police squad Posted March 4, 2020 Author Share Posted March 4, 2020 Thanks guys, this is great info. I still have no idea what to do next. I'll look at the sennheiser . To be clear, it's just me going wireless with the mic. Not the band Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted March 4, 2020 Share Posted March 4, 2020 (edited) Why do you want to go wireless? I can understand it for singers who don't play an instrument and who move around the stage a lot, but not for those also playing an instrument whose mic will be on a stand anyway. Or is this a different band where you are just doing vocals? Edited March 4, 2020 by BigRedX Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
police squad Posted March 4, 2020 Author Share Posted March 4, 2020 25 minutes ago, BigRedX said: Why do you want to go wireless? I can understand it for singers who don't play an instrument and who move around the stage a lot, but not for those also playing an instrument whose mic will be on a stand anyway. Or is this a different band where you are just doing vocals? In my duo, I play guitar about half of the time, when I don't, I put the guitar down and usually take the mic form the stand, coil the lead round my hand so it doesn't pull out. For me being wireless isn't about walking out into the crowd, showing off, it's about having less leads under my feet and hooked around the mic stand, should I want to do my Rod stewart/ David coverdale impressions with the stand (which I used to do in my youth with my old shure wirelss rig) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
police squad Posted March 4, 2020 Author Share Posted March 4, 2020 this one? https://en-uk.sennheiser.com/microphone-wireless-system-vocal-instruments-ew-100-g4-935-s Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike257 Posted March 4, 2020 Share Posted March 4, 2020 42 minutes ago, police squad said: this one? https://en-uk.sennheiser.com/microphone-wireless-system-vocal-instruments-ew-100-g4-935-s That's the current G4 model, which is great. The previous G3 isn't hugely different though, and is basically just as good. There's god second hand deals on G3 as people upgrade to G4. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
police squad Posted March 4, 2020 Author Share Posted March 4, 2020 6 minutes ago, mike257 said: That's the current G4 model, which is great. The previous G3 isn't hugely different though, and is basically just as good. There's god second hand deals on G3 as people upgrade to G4. ok that's more great info thanks, I'll keep an eye out on ebay etc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EBS_freak Posted March 4, 2020 Share Posted March 4, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, mike257 said: That's the current G4 model, which is great. The previous G3 isn't hugely different though, and is basically just as good. There's god second hand deals on G3 as people upgrade to G4. If you look at the pcbs of the last run of g3s and current g4s you may spot something familiar... In short, it’s pretty much a facelift. Edited March 4, 2020 by EBS_freak Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
police squad Posted March 5, 2020 Author Share Posted March 5, 2020 @EBS-freak Why the 935 module? What will it give me that the beta 58 hasn't got. thanks for your help though, I love BC, there's always so much help on hand Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EBS_freak Posted March 5, 2020 Share Posted March 5, 2020 (edited) 3 hours ago, police squad said: @EBS-freak Why the 935 module? What will it give me that the beta 58 hasn't got. thanks for your help though, I love BC, there's always so much help on hand 935 - cardioid, dynamic 945 - super cardioid, dynamic 965 - cardioid/super cardioid (switchable), condenser I guess your choice between 935 and 945 depends upon your singing style and any monitors that you may use. Either 935 or 945 will do but chose considering on this - cardioid (935), offers less off axis rejection than super cardioid but will reject sound from directly behind it better than a super cardioid. So what this really means, is if you sing with a wedge directly behind the mic/mic stand, this is the one to go for super cardioid (945) offers greater off axis rejection than cardioid but will punish you more if you dont sing directly on the mic. It also doesn't have half as good rejection in the monitor wedge situation (so you should always have your monitor wedges more to the side of you than directly in front of you. For anybody else who is reading this, if you have say backing singers that are behind a row of amps or something (maybe on a platform, go for cardioid to avoid bleed entering the rear of the capsule). condenser (965) the 965 can switch between the two patterns... HOWEVER, condensers tend to be a right pig to work with on smaller stages because they tend to be a lot more sensitive in the highs. This means you tend to get more problems with feedback and you tend to have to start notching problematic frequencies quite aggressively. If your stage is big enough and the rooms are not problematic, they sound great - but in reality, a lot of environments are not like this. I gave up on condensers for live use because they bring with them a lot of problems that increase setup times. Great when they don't give you any headaches though! Compared to the Beta 58, the matching mic pickup pattern mic is the 945. If you are aware of the need to singing directly onto the mic, the 945 is great. If you are a bit lazy with mic technique and tend to sing around the capsule, than the 935 will be the better choice to keep output volume more consistent. Pay attention to this bit - Sennheiser wireless analogue mics are very sensitive out the box and people tend to freak out because they will literally pick up everything in the room. (they seem to be setup for podium use where speakers can be half a meter or so from the capsule - the worst thing for a stage environment as you can imagine!) The key to working with any analogue wireless mics is the following... First up, THE most important thing - and this should apply to every mic: 1. when singing, your lips should be on the grille. This does a number of things - greatly reduces the bleed into the mic. (Other stuff on stage but particularly drums if you have drums). 2. It also makes the voice sound richer and deeper - this means that you can get a lovely low end (the proximity effect!) without having to resort to boosting the low mids that can lead to an increased risk of feedback. Remember, you can always cut EQ - but boosting EQ tends to bring with it problems. 3. It gives a more balanced output. The drop off as you pull away from the mic, particularly on Sennheiser mics, is quite dramatic. This is a good thing - as long as your mic technique is in check. Second, set the sensitivity of the mic transmitter as low as it can go. This also encourages good mic technique and keeps bleed lower. You can add the makeup gain on the receiver prior to going into the preamp on your desk. This helps keep the mic calm and not too lively to be unmanageable. That is pretty much it. So to recap. Keep your lips on the grille. Keep your lips on the grille. Keep your lips on the grille. Keep your lips on the grille. Keep your lips on the grille. Sensitivity down on your mic transmitter - and make up the gain on the receiver. Edited March 5, 2020 by EBS_freak Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
police squad Posted March 6, 2020 Author Share Posted March 6, 2020 Thanks again, this is all great info. I do sing with my lips mostly on the grill, so I think the 945 might be more suited to me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
police squad Posted March 6, 2020 Author Share Posted March 6, 2020 @EBS_freak Also, can I ask the difference between the 8 series and 9 series mics please? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EBS_freak Posted March 6, 2020 Share Posted March 6, 2020 2 hours ago, police squad said: @EBS_freak Also, can I ask the difference between the 8 series and 9 series mics please? As for your question between 8 and 9 series mics, the 9 series are seen as being audibly better than the 8 series. What that means in reality, from my experience, is that the 9 has a better high end (more airy, less harsh), and a thicker mid tone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
police squad Posted March 10, 2020 Author Share Posted March 10, 2020 Just in case anyone is following this, I ordered the sennheiser EW100 945 on channel 38. It comes tomorrow. I'll gig it next week and report back 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EBS_freak Posted March 10, 2020 Share Posted March 10, 2020 Have fun! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
police squad Posted March 11, 2020 Author Share Posted March 11, 2020 18 hours ago, EBS_freak said: Have fun! thank you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EBS_freak Posted March 11, 2020 Share Posted March 11, 2020 (edited) 3 hours ago, police squad said: thank you More to the point, is it in your hands yet? Next step is to get a set of Eneloop batteries! Edited March 11, 2020 by EBS_freak Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
police squad Posted March 11, 2020 Author Share Posted March 11, 2020 I have it in my office. It's wonderfully made. complicated but i think I'll get to grips with it, I've downloaded the manual from sennheiser, lots of options if you were using multiple bits of kit but I'll only be using the one. Are the Eneloop batteries rechargable? I think I saw an accessory that looked like a mic holder that might recharge the batteries? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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