Tonewoods and ethics - Opinions wanted!

[dannymaddock]

Hi everyone!

I am in the process of setting up my own company making custom bass guitars. I've been wanting to do this for years now, and I want to do as much research as possible! 

For the record, this is not me trying to plug my company or products, I am conducting some much needed market research :)

Anyway, something that is important to me is ethics and sustainability. I know that many timbers used in guitar making come from dubious sources but they are usually the kind of woods that really look amazing. I personally feel that these woods only make a minimal difference to the overall sound of an instrument and there are lots of alternatives that sound just as great.

I want to get your opinions on this subject specifically in the guitar making industry. I think the easiest way is for me just to put down some questions and let you guys go nuts.

• Have you ever thought about where the wood comes from for instruments?
• If a wood looks amazing but came from an unethical source, would it bother you?
• Would you buy an instrument from a company that refuses to use a certain timber?
• How important do you think the wood is to the overall sound of a bass (i realise there may be many, many discussions about this on here but can we keep it specific to exotic timbers vs native european timbers?)
• Do you like decorative timbers, or prefer a more simple aesthetic?

Thanks in advance guys, all opinions are welcome and appreciated!

Danny

 

 

 

 

[Muzz]

I'm a big fan of figured woods, but I've never troubled myself massively over the sources thereof. I've also liked to have basses made from woods from this country, tho it's not a complete deal-breaker, if the right piece of marmalade-looking birdseye maple came up from elsewhere, for example...

You may have something to talk about in a marketing sense with ethical wood supply, as long as you've done your homework. Even concentrating on domestic woods might bring an advantage in the marketplace; there are plenty of people who Buy British (and it only takes a cursory glance over on The Other Place to see there are even more in the States who are pretty rabid about Buying American)...personally, it might be on my shopping list, but it'll be a loooong way down past the actual bass itself...

As far as the tone is concerned, exotic timbers definitely...look nice. It's been done to death on here, but as there's very very little actual scientific evidence for the tone of a wood (and given the natural variation in different pieces of even the same wood, there's unlikely to be), it may well have a small influence on the tone, but many other factors (like construction, pickups and placement, EQ and hardware, strings, etc) have a much, much bigger effect on the tone of an instrument.

HTH... M

Edited March 8, 2020 by Muzz

[hooky_lowdown]

Choice of strings, pickups and the "player" has the biggest influence on sound. I wouldn't worry too much about sound, I've seen guitars and basses made from drift wood, so guess that says something.

If you're looking at being mass market then sustainability should be considered. If you're doing bespoke builds then it'll depend on the client, and sustainability really won't be an issue as you're demand will be so low it'll be inconsequential.

[Happy Jack]

I'm pretty much with Hooky on this, but I also note that you seem to be assuming that we all want to see the wood. Quite frankly I don't give much of a toss what wood a bass is made of, and most of my high-end basses (Fender, Mike Lull, Mosrite, Rickenbacker) have solid finishes which means they could be MDF for all I know.

If your focus is solely on basses with a natural finish, then I'd suggest that the range of stains, varnishes and coatings out there is so immense that any piece of plywood can be transformed into something more interesting to look at.

 

[AngelDeVille]

This bass is capalta? With a figured maple cap...

 

the paint covered all that crap up...

 

[Jean-Luc Pickguard]

The material used to make the fingerboard of my thunderbird vintage pros is listed in different sources by as being either rosewood or blackwood tec depending where you look. I have no idea which was actually used, the basses sound and feel great and the fingerboards certainly have the appearance of rosewood and whether they are real rosewood or pinus radiata which has been processed and compressed doesn't matter to me.

I don't own any 'coffee table' basses, about half of my basses (& guitars) are solid colours and the rest are sunburst apart from the plain clear finish on a couple of telecasters and transparent red on another guitar. I would prefer a nice looking piece of plain-old mahogany, swamp ash or alder over something fancy and exotic.

I think different woods *can* make a bass sound different, but not necessarily better or worse, and other factors such as the construction methods (bolt-on, glued-in, or thru neck), bridge type, pickups and strings can all make more of a difference, and of course the same instrument can sound very different in the hands of different players. My candy-apple red squier SS jag (with EMGs & hi-mass bridge) sounds as good as any of my more expensive basses - and that has a humble agathis body.

[Mykesbass]

A lot of decorative woods are from diseased trees, so shouldn't really be an ethical issue. 

As for tonewood, I'd love to see a highly controlled blind test to see if there is any difference between woods.

So in answer to your questions:

Yes, Yes, Yes, Not at all, I like figured woods (spalted, birdseye, but not flamed, but I also like (and have, exclusively) simple finished basses.

Good luck with your venture.

[TrevorR]

In answer to your questions...

• Have you ever thought about where the wood comes from for instruments?
  
  Yes, it’s a consideration. My custom built acoustic guitar has a locally sourced walnut back and sides for that reason. For me it needs to be sourced in a fully kosher manner as a minimum.

 

• If a wood looks amazing but came from an unethical source, would it bother you?

Yes. For a custom build I would want to know woods came from CITES approved sources and from proper FSC accredited and tracable sources. And no mass builder should be flaunting the law.

• Would you buy an instrument from a company that refuses to use a certain timber?

Yes. There are options. I love rosewood fingerboards but would be happy to go for Paul ferro or a similar option. I wouldn’t want an “ebonised” board though. Rather have a naturally attractive wood. My custom acoustic bass is European sourced flame maple and spruce.

• How important do you think the wood is to the overall sound of a bass (i realise there may be many, many discussions about this on here but can we keep it specific to exotic timbers vs native european timbers?)
   

It’s certainly a factor/contribution but by no means an overriding faction not certainly in the simple and binary way most folk argue for or against when this is discussed on the interweb. It will definitely be much less predictable than many argue given the organic, non-homogeneous nature of wood and massively outweighed by other factors like hardware, design, electronics etc. Ultimately it’s value to the builder and buyer will mostly be aesthetic (and workability for the builder).

• Do you like decorative timbers, or prefer a more simple aesthetic?

I am a fan of natural and trans finished  woods. Personally not a solid colour fan (the red Wal below is actually deep trans red on a plainish ash body). But a builder will want/need both as an option in their finishing range.

As an example, my bass collection to show preferences...

Edited March 9, 2020 by TrevorR

[nige1968]

Yes, yes, yes, maybe a bit, both

[CamdenRob]

I think these days not using woods from ethical / sustainable sources would be frowned upon... If I were setting myself up as a builder I’d be making sure everything was kosher on that front as a given.

As for wood making a diffrrence to the tone of an instrument - I’ve been firmly in the “It makes no difference whatsoever” camp for a while now but I’d need to qualify that. In a band context, live, as part of a wall of sound containing other instruments, amplified to a sufficient level, I would challenge anyone to differentiate between the woods a selection of instruments may be made from... However  with isolated bass at home (and to a certain extent in the studio) there is an appreciable difference between the core tone of my basses.

I have two recent build Wals one with ziricote facings and one with maple facings. The two basses have identical components, mahogany core and ebony boards. Although obviously the core is not from the same piece of timber so it could arguably be that which is imparting the tonal character rather than the facings. The maple faced bass sounds richer at the lower end. Not more powerful, just a greater complexity to the sound. Very difficult to express in words but clearly obvious with a simple demonstration. The ziricote faced bass has a cleaner more clinical tone with a brighter top end. Obviously being Wal basses the tonewood is neither of these instruments defining characteristic, that comes from the pickups which make by far the biggest difference to the tone of a bass bar the strings IMO.

As for which I prefer, I like both is the simple answer 😊 I like heavily figured wood finishes and I also like the traditional fender aesthetic. Only thing I’m not keen on is going very close but not actually the same as Fender... Fender basses with a different headstock or no pickguard look weird 😕

Edited March 9, 2020 by CamdenRob

[mikel]

Personally i am not impressed by heavily figured timber, it often looks like a fablon coating when lacquered. As for "tonewoods", its a bit like pixie dust to me. I had a Strat copy that everyone raved about the tone and sustain. It had a plywood body.

[Bassfinger]

None of it bothers me in the slightest, although I may be in a minority.  This planet has far bigger problems that society seems reluctant to address, so I'd happy buy a bass made from the last surviving Nagawagga tree, strung with a virgins pubes, with pickups potted from dodo egg whites.

As long as no human being is being exploted, eg, no child labour at the source of materials etc, then I dare not about the provenance or sustainability of the materials.  No one who burns fossil fuels has any moral right to complain, although in sure plenty do.

As regards "tonewoods", in 40 years of guitar and bass playing I remain unconvinced that the contribution they make to sound is either real or positive.  I've played some cheap instruments that sounded amazing, and some hideously expensive ones that sounded bland. The correlation is far from universal.

Edited March 9, 2020 by Bassfinger

[BlueMoon]

@dannymaddock : I am impressed that you are placing these issues so highly in your new business endeavour. Thank you!!

Over the years I have purchased and sold on a few basses, mostly pre-owned, that had so called exotic wood facings. Almost all had mahogany cores. The exotic wood facings were aesthetic touches from my perspective. Until recently, I wouldn't have given a fig about sourcing, scarcity etc. If it was the bass of my dreams, and I could afford it, I'd have it.

If commissioning a new bass today I would be asking more questions about sourcing, sustainability etc.......and looking for evidence, not just words. Not easy, especially for SME outfits. However, repuations are built on more than certificates though. I see lots of FSC stickers on DIY wood these days.............and I am not so sure how reassuring that is.

I see that several big-name brands have switched sourcing to minimise/avoid issues when CITES came in. I also see that some (eg Höfner) have used sustainable materials and are making a big play about it. Good for them........but have never tried or compared any of such basses.

So in summary, second-hand basses less important..............newly built bass to my specs, quite important. You're on the right track. Good luck.

[TrevorR]

1 hour ago, BlueMoon said:

@dannymaddock : I am impressed that you are placing these issues so highly in your new business endeavour. Thank you.

If commissioning a new bass today I would be asking more questions about sourcing, sustainability etc.......and looking for evidence, not just words. Not easy, especially for SME outfits. However, repuations are built on more than certificates though. I see lots of FSC stickers on DIY wood these days.............and I am not so sure how reassuring that is.

I see that several big-name brands have switched sourcing to minimise/avoid issues when CITES came in. I also see that some (eg Höfner) have used sustainable materials and are making a big play about it. Good for them........but have never tried or compared any of such basses.

So in summary, second-hand basses less important..............newly built bass to my specs, quite important. You're on the right track. Good luck.

On the certification... the EU has very strict sustainability rules (much more than many other jurisdictions). So take the appearance of FSC stickers as a sign of success rather than the opposite. Of course compliance enforcement is the critical adjunct to that but audits are undertaken on a random sampling basis to trace the paperwork back to source. 
 

In my job I have close contact with biomass sustainability criteria in the energy sector and I know how stringent those criteria are in Western Europe, how seriously they are taken and that regulators do monitor carefully. Will some unscrupulous operators do what they can to get around the rules? Of course, the same goes in any area of society or business. But ultimately we “shouldn’t let the perfect be the enemy of the good”.

[Trueno]

I'm not bothered about the wood. I prefer basses with a thick coat of shiny paint... preferably CAR or any other type of red. I also prefer it to be light.

I'm of the pickups/strings/fingers school of thought when it comes to tone generation... and that's before it gets mangled by my EBS Microbass preamp.

I once had a Warwick Thumb bass that had to be waxed... it looked  and sounded great but was a total PITA. I even thought about having it refinished with some thick red shiny paint.... but sold it and bought a Squier.

[Dan Dare]

2 hours ago, Bassfinger said:

None of it bothers me in the slightest, although I may be in a minority.  This planet has far bigger problems that society seems reluctant to address, so I'd happy buy a bass made from the last surviving Nagawagga tree, strung with a virgins pubes, with pickups potted from dodo egg whites.

As long as no human being is being exploted, eg, no child labour at the source of materials etc, then I dare not about the provenance or sustainability of the materials.  No one who burns fossil fuels has any moral right to complain, although in sure plenty do.

As regards "tonewoods", in 40 years of guitar and bass playing I remain unconvinced that the contribution they make to sound is either real or positive.  I've played some cheap instruments that sounded amazing, and some hideously expensive ones that sounded bland. The correlation is far from universal.

I take your point about the fact that the planet having bigger problems, although I think we should address those we are capable, as individuals, of dealing with as well as pressing society at large to do something about the bigger ones. If that means the only thing we can do personally is to try not to over-exploit scarce resources, that's what we ought to do. Add up all the small individual contributions and the total beneficial effect is large.

Agree about tone woods for electric instruments. I've also played guitars and basses made from nothing special that really worked (and vice versa). Given that the sound of an electric instrument comes from a magnet with a coil around it sensing vibration in a string and converting it to a minute electrical signal (pickups are not microphones), perhaps that isn't surprising.

[ead]

16 hours ago, dannymaddock said:

Hi everyone!

I am in the process of setting up my own company making custom bass guitars. I've been wanting to do this for years now, and I want to do as much research as possible! 

For the record, this is not me trying to plug my company or products, I am conducting some much needed market research

Anyway, something that is important to me is ethics and sustainability. I know that many timbers used in guitar making come from dubious sources but they are usually the kind of woods that really look amazing. I personally feel that these woods only make a minimal difference to the overall sound of an instrument and there are lots of alternatives that sound just as great.

I want to get your opinions on this subject specifically in the guitar making industry. I think the easiest way is for me just to put down some questions and let you guys go nuts.

• Have you ever thought about where the wood comes from for instruments?
• If a wood looks amazing but came from an unethical source, would it bother you?
• Would you buy an instrument from a company that refuses to use a certain timber?
• How important do you think the wood is to the overall sound of a bass (i realise there may be many, many discussions about this on here but can we keep it specific to exotic timbers vs native european timbers?)
• Do you like decorative timbers, or prefer a more simple aesthetic?

Thanks in advance guys, all opinions are welcome and appreciated!

Danny

 

 

 

 

Hi Danny

Interesting questions.  Here goes:

• Probably not as much as I should have done tbh.  I am consious of the CITES regs but not their specific content
• Yes
• Yes, I think standards are important and Alan at ACG who has made a few (OK, quite a few) basses for me is happy to advise on this
• For me personally, probably not so much as my main bass playing activity is in bands where I'm sure any small differences are not audible.  Not part of my main criteria tbh
• Yes I do like this type of finish, that said I also have some relatively plain basses with no fancy tops

[Nicko]

16 hours ago, dannymaddock said:

• Have you ever thought about where the wood comes from for instruments?
• If a wood looks amazing but came from an unethical source, would it bother you?
• Would you buy an instrument from a company that refuses to use a certain timber?
• How important do you think the wood is to the overall sound of a bass (i realise there may be many, many discussions about this on here but can we keep it specific to exotic timbers vs native european timbers?)
• Do you like decorative timbers, or prefer a more simple aesthetic?

Not really. If I was that bothered about sustainability I would only have one bass and one guitar.

I wouldn't knowingly buy wood from an unethical source, but I wouldn't particularly be bothered about checking that it was ethically sourced.

Yes.

As others have suggested, I don't think the species of wood is that important to overall sound of an electric guitar/bass, although I suspect density of the wood may be.

I have never bought a guitar or bass for the way it looks and prefer to keep away from flashy looking finishes, but I do have a couple of guitars with translucent finishes.

ps I seem to remember a period in the 90s where some manufacturers were providing exotic looking finishes using something called Foto Flame.  In those days it was so that you could get an exotic looking guitar without an exotic looking wallet.

 

[Monkey Steve]

Currently awaiting delivery of my second custom built bass (first a Warwick, awaiting a Wal) and wood choice was very important for me.  Partly to do with the (perhaps perceived) sound, partly to do with the appearance. Certainly I'm not expecting my new Wal with birdseye maple facings to sound at all different to one I had 20 years ago with walnut facings, because that Wal sound is all in the electrics

It's probably no coincidence that my non-custom Rickenbacker 4001 has quite birdseye'd maple on it, and that of the 10 (soon to be 11) guitars and basses that I own, only one has solid paint on it (which was the only option for that model).  So, yes, having the option of exotic, figured wood would certainly appeal to me, although I do also like non-exotic, non figured, plain wood.  In my experience of placing custom orders, there is usually an extra charge for the fancier options, with a less exotic wood included for the basic price, and I'd suggest that beyond the usual suspects which have distinct tonal characteristics that people know about (ash, maple, mahogany, etc) most of the fancy, highly figured woods are chosen because they look pretty. 

For the ethics of it, this is very timely - there was a report on the World Service this morning about how African forests are being illegally stripped of their rosewood trees which ends up in containers to China, who have long exhausted their own forests. CITES being largely ignored at both ends because the local economy means that nobody is very interested in enforcing it

For all that, a bit like @CamdenRob I sort of take it as read that the luthier will have done the due diligence on this...and as I type it I realise that it should really rest with me to do more research and make sure that the wood is ethically sourced and not from endangered species.  It would bother me if the wood I wanted came from an unethical source...but I might not ask about it so I think that doing this for the customer would be an excellent move.  In my professional field (pensions) there is a new requirement about ethics and sustainability for pension scheme investments, and you'd be amazed at just how ethical all managers claim that their selections of investments are *cough greenwashing cough*.  It's largely a value judgement because there is no clear definition of what "green" actually means for investments, and similarly, you will have to decide for yourself (and your customers) what "ethically sourced" means for woods.

In my defence, none of the wood on either of my custom instruments is on any endangered list, and I specifically excluded rosewood, no so much because of it potentially being on the endangered list per se, but because of the potential CITES headaches (which were being much debated and little understood as I was placing the Wal order)

So how do you feel about it @dannymaddock?  Are you asking because you want to use ethically sourced wood and want to understand how that will affect sales, or do you not really care but don't want to do something that might affect sales?  No judgement either way - if it helps saves the environment in even a small way, it doesn't really matter what the motivation is

What I would suggest is that if you are going to make a stand on which woods you will and will not use, make a big point of it up front - tell everybody what you will not use and explain why.  Have you looked at what other makers are saying on the same topic?

I'll repeat something from a well known custom guitar maker who makes extremely expensive guitars and is a friend of a friend - when CITES restrictions on rosewood came in he immediately responded.  By telling non EU customers that he couldn't be @rsed with the CITES paperwork so they either have to place their order without rosewood, or they'll have to fly to London to collect their guitar in person and he would include the cost of the flights in the purchase price.  Hasn't affected his order book at all, so if people want your instruments, they'll put up with the choice of woods that you give them (in fairness he doesn't do much/any work with very exotic woods that I'm aware of) 

[Skybone]

18 hours ago, dannymaddock said:

• Have you ever thought about where the wood comes from for instruments?
• If a wood looks amazing but came from an unethical source, would it bother you?
• Would you buy an instrument from a company that refuses to use a certain timber?
• How important do you think the wood is to the overall sound of a bass (i realise there may be many, many discussions about this on here but can we keep it specific to exotic timbers vs native european timbers?)
• Do you like decorative timbers, or prefer a more simple aesthetic?

• Yes
• Probably not
• No
• It does play a part in the overall sound, but only part.
• Yes I do like decorative timbers, and yes, I also like a more simple aesthetic.

I like the grain to be visible, I like flaws, it is a natural product after all. A decorative grain is wonderful, but in some cases, it's overdone and over the top IMO. Some instruments look more like coffee tables than instruments. A nice flame or a burl is a wonderful thing, but can be a bit "visual overload" if too decorative a piece is used. If a piece is subtly figured, IMO, it's a bit more interesting to look at.

The big question here though, is how can these figured timbers be produced in a sustainable manner? Can they be "farmed", or does their figuring depend on them growing outside of a managed plantation?

 

[itu]

When I have been in contact with local luthiers, they have had local timber in their storage which certainly is not under any restriction. Local wood is one choice of making something different. (And not producing one more J/P copy is another.)

While the player tries to find her/his sound, it is up to you to find yours in instrument making. Please consider something novel instead of a "Jazz with figured flafla and a cultivated blabla and how-many-times-i've-read-the-same-since-1950's-boring-boring".

[Stub Mandrel]

If I get a bass and discover it contains ethically and sustainably sourced timber, I go out and kick a badger to level things up.

[Stub Mandrel]

More seriously, I do worry about sustainability and I'm happy to have more sustainable woods in my basses.

I also feel that making fine instruments is a good use of timber (not least as the carbon should be locked up for a decent time) and because high-value end uses help support good woodland management.

Too many basses look like coffee tables though , and I can't lose sleep worrying about the effect of different woods on sustain etc.*

 

 

*common sense suggests that the curiously close correlation between timber cost and tonal quality is more than a little suspicious...

[Teebs]

Hiya Danny

 

• Have you ever thought about where the wood comes from for instruments?

Not really previously, but I probably would nowadays.

• If a wood looks amazing but came from an unethical source, would it bother you?

Yes - if it was a new bass, I wouldn't buy it. If it was 10+ tears, I would.

• Would you buy an instrument from a company that refuses to use a certain timber?

Yes.

• How important do you think the wood is to the overall sound of a bass (i realise there may be many, many discussions about this on here but can we keep it specific to exotic timbers vs native european timbers?)

Moderately. It's all in the fingers though! ( )

• Do you like decorative timbers, or prefer a more simple aesthetic?

It depends on the particular finish, shape of body, number of strings etc.

Good luck with your business!

 

[Teebs]

12 minutes ago, Stub Mandrel said:

If I get a bass and discover it contains ethically and sustainably sourced timber, I go out and kick a badger to level things up.

Git!

I hope it bites you back!