What does adding a 2 x 10 to a 1 x 15 do to the sound?

[alexclaber]

[quote name='Lfalex v1.1' post='414016' date='Feb 19 2009, 11:08 AM']Which was probably primarily driven (no pun intended!) by an entirely practical consideration;
Stability.
Your vertically aligned stack is no good if it's laying on its side (or worse, face down) on the stage because it fell over![/quote]

No, definitely not. The original reason is that the valve amps were wide so the cabs were made equally wide. A vertically stacked pair of 2x10"s is not in the least bit unstable.

Alex

[Boneless]

Well, but it's more unstable than a conventional 4x10", plus the fact that a vertically stacked 4x10" it's more cumbersome and more difficult to transport.

In the end, there is a thing called "compromise", if you don't really need outstanding performance (many valve amp owners actually WANT a low sensitivity, inefficient cab so they can drive the valves better, when you have a VBA400, overdrive is hard to achieve as it is PLUS they often search for a tone which has a very low frequency response, hence the lack of a tweeter and sealed cabs, many players actually look for a cab that perform best in a very limited range, ie. 100Hz-2.5KHz).

I also think that nowadays having very efficient cabs is less of an issue, since power is readily available and at a low cost.

I've read what you say about your cabs, Alex, and while, I repeat, they intrigue me, I can see why not many big musical companies would be prepared to make such a cab. Fine-tuned crossovers, and lightweight, maybe, but CUMBERSOME cabs (the Big One is... a big one ) doesn't really appeal to the mass market, since all I see is players who want either a lightweight and small cab/amp (hence, the small Markbass combos, for example), or big, vintage voiced amps and cabs. Your "best" product, the Big One, is neither vintage or small, although I can imagine you actually have quite a bit of success and profit. Don't get me wrong, I am not dissing your products, and I repeat, I actually think you're making a great job (I still wish I could try them out), but you must understand (and I'm certain that you do) that the musical industry is a very "traditional" one, and even the most "modern" musicians are generally looking for something else (by what I read on the music forums and listening to what most people are looking for).

Edited February 19, 2009 by Boneless

[Linus27]

Sorry if I have opened up a can of worms with my original question. Still not sure to go for a 2 x 10 or 1 x 15

[Mr.T]

[quote name='Linus27' post='414102' date='Feb 19 2009, 12:10 PM']Sorry if I have opened up a can of worms with my original question. Still not sure to go for a 2 x 10 or 1 x 15 [/quote]


.... Or would you be better to open two smaller cans of worms?
And if so, should they be stacked vertically or horizontally?

[alexclaber]

[quote name='Boneless' post='414096' date='Feb 19 2009, 12:04 PM']...lightweight, maybe, but CUMBERSOME cabs (the Big One is... a big one )[/quote]

You're certainly welcome to your opinion on many aspects but I think anyone would struggle to call my cabs cumbersome (especially in capitals!) if they'd encountered one in person! The Compact is so slender you can carry it in one hand like a suitcase whilst the Big One only lives up to its name in sound - it is smaller than most 4x10"s, you can walk through a doorway with it without having to go sideways, and is an easy carry in two hands and fine for short distances in one hand.

Alex

[Boneless]

Oh, it seemed quite large from the photos... oh well.

[bremen]

[quote name='Mr.T' post='414110' date='Feb 19 2009, 12:17 PM'].... Or would you be better to open two smaller cans of worms?
And if so, should they be stacked vertically or horizontally? [/quote]



And should the worms be crossed over 2nd or 3rd order?

[alexclaber]

[quote name='bremen' post='414138' date='Feb 19 2009, 12:39 PM']And should the worms be crossed over 2nd or 3rd order?[/quote]

Either way is fine, as long as your worms are phase coherent.

Alex

[synaesthesia]

[quote name='chris_b' post='413960' date='Feb 19 2009, 10:24 AM']So you are saying that due to the design of many *x10 cabs comb filtering is not an issue?

I'm not sure that comb filtering problems in a 4x5 cab is very relevent to most of us.[/quote]

That is one issue, dispersion is the other. Dispersion in a bass cab is not an issue per se, if everyone on stage has some form of dedicated in ear or directional monitoring and backline is not contributing to public address. Having said that, monitor mixes don't carry everything on stage, so your ideal bass tone which you spent loads of money on often doesn't carry much farther than what you can hear if you were directly in front of it.

There is very little point in talking about quality tone if it ain't going to travel.

[Happy Jack]

The dispersion pattern you get from opening a large can of worms is quite different from that generated by two, smaller cans.

This is easily proved by checking the slime trails ...

[redstriper]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='413766' date='Feb 18 2009, 11:45 PM']OK, how many 1x8 or 1x6 w/high pass filtering did you try along with 1x15s w/low pass filtering? When the question posed is whether a top and bottom cab combination have been optimally engineered to acoustically complement each other those options would have to be made available to the consumer. They aren't. The options that are offered are only matched in cosmetics and footprint.
Your response is to a different question entirely, that being whether you can run a 2x10 and 1x15 together with an acceptable result. Obviously the answer is yes. Whether it's the best possible sounding option one could only say if you could try the above mentioned 1x8/1x15 or 1x16/1x15 with appropriate crossover, but you can't, so you'll never know.
As for Alex's perceived concessions to the conformity game, I'm sure that they will never include a 2x10 to be used with a 1x15, nor a 2x10 with horizontally aligned drivers, nor a 4x10, period. He knows better, and that's more than you can say for the usual sources.[/quote]

Thanks for the advice, but I can't help think that when you make suggestions for the 'best possible sounding solution', you are not taking into account the differences in subjective tonal requirements.
My preference is for 2 separate 15" cabs, although I find a vertical 2x10 used with a 15 works fine too and I use a single 15 or 2x10 for small gigs and practises.
It's my personal choice after months of trial and error and it works for me, but I'm not an average player in that I don't like any treble or upper mid range in my sound, just smooth, deep bass.
I look forward to trying a 1x8 or 1x6 cab (if can you tell me where to find one) with one of my 15s as you suggest, meanwhile I'll stick to the 2 15 drivers that Alex recommended.
If the 1x8 or 1x6 works better than the 2x10 or single 15 as you predict, I will be very happy because it will be a lighter and smaller box.

[redstriper]

[quote name='Linus27' post='414102' date='Feb 19 2009, 12:10 PM']Sorry if I have opened up a can of worms with my original question. Still not sure to go for a 2 x 10 or 1 x 15 [/quote]
I love the can of worms - it's what makes basschat so interesting.

As to the answer to your original question - go for another identical 15 and buy it used so it will keep it's value.
Everyone here agrees that is the sensible scientific and cosmetic solution.
I got mine from this forum for £60 and there's always one or two on ebay under £100.
It's not going to surprise you, because you already know what it sounds like.
It will give simply you more of the same and you can leave it at home for small gigs and practises.

Now where can I find more worms..........................

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='Lfalex v1.1' post='414016' date='Feb 19 2009, 06:08 AM']Which was probably primarily driven (no pun intended!) by an entirely practical consideration;
Stability.[/quote]
-1. Leo placed drivers side by side, starting with combos in the 50s, for two reasons. One was to cosmetically match the width of the amp section. The other is that, not being an audio engineer, he wrongly assumed, as would anyone, that a wider radiating plane would give wider dispersion. In the 60s when early portable PAs appeared many were columns, from sources such as EV and JBL, who knew that vertical sources gave the widest dispersion. By the early 1970s they disappeared, because the average buyer couldn't understand why vertical sources gave wider dispersion than horizontal, and demanded instead trapezoidal PAs intended for horizontal arraying. Rather than stand on engineering principal PA manufacturers instead built trap cabs and took the money. Trap cabs only recently disappeared from the pro-touring genre, replaced by line arrays, as the current crop of pro-touring PA operators are for the most part well versed in audio theory and know enough not to use horizontal sources. Thanks to the internet the average muso as well will eventually know that horizontal sources are bogus and demand for vertically aligned driver bass and guitar cabs will drive the 'old standards' off the market.

[skankdelvar]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='414433' date='Feb 19 2009, 04:05 PM']....Thanks to the internet the average muso as well will eventually know that horizontal sources are bogus and demand for vertically aligned driver bass and guitar cabs will drive the 'old standards' off the market.[/quote]

I hope that the vertically aligned SVT 8x10 will come with a free hard-hat...

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='skankdelvar' post='414448' date='Feb 19 2009, 11:16 AM']I hope that the vertically aligned SVT 8x10 will come with a free hard-hat...[/quote]
One of the regulars on my forum reported how he internally divided the 4x12 guitar cabs used by his sons band into two vertical sections, then added a switch to run either just two vertical drivers or all four. He did not tell them what the switch did. They vastly prefer the sound of the two drivers only.
Four tens vertically aligned, in two well designed 2x cabs for ease of transport, will outperform an 8x10 in every way. They'd also cost a lot less, and be far easier to transport. Which option do you think bass cab companies would rather sell? And which do you think those same companies will provide their endorsers with to push said sales? Engineering issues aside the bottom line with any manufacturer will always be the bottom line.

[skankdelvar]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='414500' date='Feb 19 2009, 04:55 PM']One of the regulars on my forum reported how he internally divided the 4x12 guitar cabs used by his sons band into two vertical sections, then added a switch to run either just two vertical drivers or all four. He did not tell them what the switch did. They vastly prefer the sound of the two drivers only.
Four tens vertically aligned, in two well designed 2x cabs for ease of transport, will outperform an 8x10 in every way. They'd also cost a lot less, and be far easier to transport. Which option do you think bass cab companies would rather sell? And which do you think those same companies will provide their endorsers with to push said sales? Engineering issues aside the bottom line with any manufacturer will always be the bottom line.[/quote]

So I could just buy two 2x10's and forget about the hard hat...result!

[redstriper]

[quote name='skankdelvar' post='414520' date='Feb 19 2009, 05:11 PM']So I could just buy two 2x10's and forget about the hard hat...result![/quote]
Better still - get a 1x6 and keep it under your hard hat

[xgsjx]

I just rememembered, I used to have as pair of Vox 4x10 pa speakers when I was in my early 20's. They was each about 5' high & about 1' wide & all vertically aligned.
Just thought I'd share that.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='xgsjx' post='414592' date='Feb 19 2009, 01:42 PM']I just rememembered, I used to have as pair of Vox 4x10 pa speakers when I was in my early 20's. They was each about 5' high & about 1' wide & all vertically aligned.
Just thought I'd share that.[/quote]
The best commercially built bass cab I ever owned wasn't a bass cab, it was a 1968 Kustom 4x12 PA column w/tuck and roll Naugahyde upholstery. In 1970 I had a chance to compare one side by side with an original Fridge. The Kustom was better.
Next time in London drop into St. Pauls and check out the PA. Originally installed circa 1950 it was a shining example of how well vertical sources can cope with even the most difficult venues. It was upgraded a few years ago with modern electronics and drivers but the original column speaker design remains pretty much original.

[stevie]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='414500' date='Feb 19 2009, 04:55 PM']One of the regulars on my forum reported how he internally divided the 4x12 guitar cabs used by his sons band into two vertical sections, then added a switch to run either just two vertical drivers or all four. He did not tell them what the switch did. They vastly prefer the sound of the two drivers only.[/quote]

Guitar cabs? What do guitar cabs have to do with the price of beans?

[stevie]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='414703' date='Feb 19 2009, 08:26 PM']Next time in London drop into St. Pauls and check out the PA. Originally installed circa 1950 it was a shining example of how well vertical sources can cope with even the most difficult venues. It was upgraded a few years ago with modern electronics and drivers but the original column speaker design remains pretty much original.[/quote]

WTF? And how does this system handle low B?

Edited February 19, 2009 by stevie

[Mr. Foxen]

PA columns can be pretty doom:



Dispersion doesn't matter when everywhere is in front of your speakers.

Could the 2x12 guitar cab sound better as the speakers were bereaking up some, whereas all 4 were running clean, guitards like funny things?

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' post='414789' date='Feb 19 2009, 04:39 PM']PA columns can be pretty doom:



Dispersion doesn't matter when everywhere is in front of your speakers.[/quote]Even at close range having them horizontal isn't good, the tone will change literally every few inches as you walk across their soundfield. The main deficiency of columns way back when was they were intended to be stood on the floor or stage, and that seriously detracted from their function. They work best for PA on a stand that allows them to be lifted high enough so that the lowermost part of the cab is at ear level for the close-in audience, the upper drivers carrying over the heads of the audience to reach the back of the room, with ten degrees or so of down tilt. Unfortunately stands to allow them to be easily set up that way didn't exist.

[stevie]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='414864' date='Feb 19 2009, 11:32 PM']They work best for PA on a stand that allows them to be lifted high enough so that the lowermost part of the cab is at ear level for the close-in audience, the upper drivers carrying over the heads of the audience to reach the back of the room, with ten degrees or so of down tilt. Unfortunately stands to allow them to be easily set up that way didn't exist.[/quote]

In the sixties, columns were simply positioned either side of the stage. They didn't need stands. And the whole point of the Marshall 2 x12" and 4 x 12", which were ubiquitous over here, was that they *restricted" horizontal dispersion.

[Guest MoJo]

I'm really tempted to turn my Trace 122H 2x10 combo on it's side at the next gig and see what difference it makes but I imagine my band mates and any other musos in the venue will think I've gone gaga (not Lady Gaga either)