Theory

[thebigyin]

Hi Folks,

This last few months I have started dabbling in a bit of Theory nothing intense just trying to better myself, unfortunately my job doesn't permit me to rehearse for a band anymore so haven't played 'live' for a good few years, so rather than give up which I almost did....I started learning a few bits which I could never grasp before, like modes, chord tones, intervals ect….still just scratching the surface but the penny slowly starting to drop (I hope) like chord construction I never knew a chord was made up in intervals of thirds ect….I learnt my basic triad arpeggios years ago but adding the 7th, 9th, 11th ect just count up 3....I was a very late starter about 40 and after 17 years of playing these things are only just registering, took me ages to learn modes could never grasp it initially....I have tried showing or talking to a couple of muso mates but they scoff at me when I say do you know this, that or the other blah, blah, i'm finding it quite interesting but don't want to get to OTT just enough to maybe one day be able to play some interesting walking basslines, still a huge amount to learn but after not picking my Bass up for years I decided about Christmas time to give it one last bash and feel at long last i'm making some progress....good luck to all who might be in the same boat.

[Dad3353]

A big 'thumbs up' on this, and 'Well Done' on at least trying to get a handle on all of it. One is not required to be a working muso to want to get to grips with this, much as one doesn't have to be a pilot to make model 'planes. It's a never-ending subject, with the promise that there'll always be another page to turn. It does become fascinating, I found, once one or two of the pennies 'drop'. For my part, I entertain no hope whatever of ever being able to play even 1% of what I've learnt over the decades, but I still continue to read through stuff well above my pay-grade, and enjoy mentally fitting it all together.
Be warned: it's a slippery slope which, if you're not very careful, may, eventually, lead you down that most dangerous of rabbit holes: jazz..! 

Edited March 26, 2020 by Dad3353

[Owen]

One of the interesting things about dealing with people who are experienced players but not theory friendly is that they actually do know a lot but do not know the correct labels.

[thebigyin]

29 minutes ago, Dad3353 said:

A big 'thumbs up' on this, and 'Well Done' on at least trying to get a handle on all of it. One is not required to be a working muso to want to get to grips with this, much as one doesn't have to be a pilot to make model 'planes. It's a never-ending subject, with the promise that there'll always be another page to turn. It does become fascinating, I found, once one or two of the pennies 'drop'. For my part, I entertain no hope whatever of ever being able to play even 1% of what I've learnt over the decades, but I still continue to read through stuff well above my pay-grade, and enjoy mentally fitting it all together.
Be warned: it's a slippery slop which, if you're not very careful, may, eventually, lead you down that most dangerous of rabbit holes: jazz..! 

Thankyou just trying my way through 'Autumn Leaves' just R 5th at moment only started today seems to be the go too standard for beginners in this field only worked on first half of song just getting a feel for it love the chord sequence moves lovely.

[SpondonBassed]

34 minutes ago, Dad3353 said:

Be warned: it's a slippery slop which, if you're not very careful, may, eventually, lead you down that most dangerous of rabbit holes: jazz..! 

"slippery slop"
"rabbit holes"
"jazz"

Douglas?  What's Francais for double entendre?

[thebigyin]

17 minutes ago, owen said:

One of the interesting things about dealing with people who are experienced players but not theory friendly is that they actually do know a lot but do not know the correct labels.

Aye I know some really good musicians but like myself the word 'Theory' sends them into panic mode lol, but it's nice to try learn some basics I have only just learnt what a II V I is ect….I was familier to a standard blues I IV V but now I've learnt the meaning of intervals it's all making sense.

[Dad3353]

Freudien slip..? No, just a bad case of reading back with 'senior' eyes..! Apologies; it won't hapen again.

...

 

[SpondonBassed]

1 hour ago, thebigyin said:

This last few months I have started dabbling in a bit of Theory nothing intense just trying to better myself

Have you ever done any of the graded exams?

I wondered if I'd be about G1 or 2 from self teaching but truthfully speaking even that might be optimistic.  I picked up the books for those grades and had an awful flashback to the Bert Weedon Play in a Day book that put me off guitar many years ago.

They're still on a shelf somewhere.

Good luck.  I would like to think I'd have the will to apply myself but music is more of an occupational therapy for me.  Once schooling becomes part of it the joy goes.

Edited March 26, 2020 by SpondonBassed

[SpondonBassed]

6 minutes ago, Dad3353 said:

Apologies; it won't hapen again.

No apology necessary.

Just be careful you don't end up in the famous quotes thread for one of those.  Heeheehee.

[kusee pee]

Very good use of your time.  I need to do the same!  I never understood modes until my Mum recently showed me on the piano.  When you have the keys in front of you it makes total sense!

[thebigyin]

49 minutes ago, SpondonBassed said:

Have you ever done any of the graded exams?

I wondered if I'd be about G1 or 2 from self teaching but truthfully speaking even that might be optimistic.  I picked up the books for those grades and had an awful flashback to the Bert Weedon Play in a Day book that put me off guitar many years ago.

They're still on a shelf somewhere.

Good luck.  I would like to think I'd have the will to apply myself but music is more of an occupational therapy for me.  Once schooling becomes part of it the joy goes.

I know what your saying there but I felt I had to do something or pack up for good....having not played for years it seemed the right thing to do for myself, if I had the knowledge and was good enough would of loved to teach Bass and trawling through the endless online lessons ect and the so called importance of theory I thought why not give it a bash and believe it or not have enjoyed learning some basic theory and feel it's improved my outlook...time will tell, best of luck.

[thebigyin]

47 minutes ago, kusee pee said:

Very good use of your time.  I need to do the same!  I never understood modes until my Mum recently showed me on the piano.  When you have the keys in front of you it makes total sense!

I have only learnt the modes in a couple of keys but still got to learn how to apply them, that's the problem with me but it's slowly coming together best of luck.

[Reggaebass]

I started taking  bass theory more serious about 4 years ago, and the more I learned the more things started to make sense , and it’s now part of my practice routine in one form or another, imo @thebigyin it’s time well spent .

[CameronJ]

46 minutes ago, thebigyin said:

I have only learnt the modes in a couple of keys but still got to learn how to apply them, that's the problem with me but it's slowly coming together best of luck.

I think @kusee pee meant keys as in piano keys - i.e. having the keyboard laid out in front of you makes it easier to visualise note relationships given its linear orientation.

Edited March 26, 2020 by CameronJ

[kusee pee]

26 minutes ago, CameronJ said:

I think @kusee pee meant keys as in piano keys - i.e. having the keyboard laid out in front of you makes it easier to visualise note relationships given its linear orientation.

Indeed, sorry for any confusion.  The keyboard made it look obvious.  Transferring it to the bass was much harder.  Hence I gave up and am in need of a refresh.

[thebigyin]

1 hour ago, Reggaebass said:

I started taking  bass theory more serious about 4 years ago, and the more I learned the more things started to make sense , and it’s now part of my practice routine in one form or another, imo @thebigyin it’s time well spent .

Thanks I agree.

[thebigyin]

36 minutes ago, CameronJ said:

I think @kusee pee meant keys as in piano keys - i.e. having the keyboard laid out in front of you makes it easier to visualise note relationships given its linear orientation.

Yes I know....I was referring to the modes in the 12 keys I have only learnt them in a few keys, i'm only scratching the surface at the moment

[thebigyin]

14 minutes ago, kusee pee said:

Indeed, sorry for any confusion.  The keyboard made it look obvious.  Transferring it to the bass was much harder.  Hence I gave up and am in need of a refresh.

Know what you meant Kusee Pee....I was referring to I haven't learnt them in all 12 keys just a few.....it's all well and good learning the shapes but it's putting them to good use and making music out of them but enjoying the challenge.

[adamg67]

2 hours ago, kusee pee said:

Very good use of your time.  I need to do the same!  I never understood modes until my Mum recently showed me on the piano.  When you have the keys in front of you it makes total sense!

I just had this happen to me, literally a couple of weeks ago! Modes seemed a bizarre way of looking at things until I saw how it worked on piano.

I think learning another and quite different instrument (I'm currently a comfortable Grade 0 on piano, but improving a lot  ) has really helped my theory, and my bass playing.

[paul_c2]

Bass (and guitar) have the advantage that once the light bulb illuminates, modes across all 12 keys (okay...there's actually 15 keys) are pretty much the same complexity.

On something like a flute or a trumpet, you need to do some further logical thinking to "get to" the modes and its harder.

[Reggaebass]

A few people have mentioned the piano and scales, Here’s a short video some may find interesting 🙂

 

[wateroftyne]

1 hour ago, Reggaebass said:

A few people have mentioned the piano and scales, Here’s a short video some may find interesting 🙂

 

Thanks for sharing - I really like his style.

Here's a general question, which I hope doesn't derail the thread too much.

At the end of the clip he talks about the circle of fifths. Since the first time I had this explained to me (about 25 years ago, by a music teacher friend, who thought it would change my life), I've literally failed to see what practical purpose I'd use it for. I'm clearly missing something - can someone put me out of my misery?

[peteb]

2 hours ago, wateroftyne said:

Thanks for sharing - I really like his style.

Here's a general question, which I hope doesn't derail the thread too much.

At the end of the clip he talks about the circle of fifths. Since the first time I had this explained to me (about 25 years ago, by a music teacher friend, who thought it would change my life), I've literally failed to see what practical purpose I'd use it for. I'm clearly missing something - can someone put me out of my misery?

To me, the circle of fifths seems to more about how you write down a key signature on notation. I have never understood what it's practical application is beyond that. I can understand what it is, just not how to use it (if that makes sense)?

[jrixn1]

On 28/03/2020 at 10:15, wateroftyne said:

At the end of the clip he talks about the circle of fifths. Since the first time I had this explained to me (about 25 years ago, by a music teacher friend, who thought it would change my life), I've literally failed to see what practical purpose I'd use it for.

In language you have letters, which are the building blocks of words.  Then a level up, words are the building blocks of sentences.  Analogously in music, if notes are letters, and chords are words, then the circle of fifths is a very commonly-seen sentence.

Suppose you're handed a 32-bar chart in the key of Fm, and the final eight is:

If you're reading each chord in isolation, it might seem like an onslaught of unconnected chords, which gets quite fast-moving particularly in the final line - looks like some sharps and flats mixed in together, what's an F# and B doing there if we are in they key of Fm, why is there a B major immediately followed by a B minor, etc?

But if you can "see" the circles of fifths, you can more quickly make sense of what's going on at a higher level:

• an extended turnaround in the key of Ab (bars 25-28)
• a 2-5-1 in the key of B (bar 29)
• a 2-5-1 in the key of A (bar 30)
• a 2-5-1 in the key of Ab (bars 31-32)

When I say extended turnaround, I mean 2-5 3-6 2-5-1.  That and the simpler 2-5-1 are straight out of the circle of fifths.

So what's the point?  The advantage is that I'm very familiar with turnarounds; and now that I understand that this section is literally just turnarounds, I can use my usual grooves, fills, licks, substitutions, party pieces, whatever, and I know they'll fit musically, and I'll end up in the right place.

You'll encounter the circle of fifths more in jazz or jazz-derived music, and knowing what is going on musically is more useful if you're improvising or have the freedom/desire to vary your part, rather than playing a written or fixed repeated riff.  It could be that you just want to add a passing note between the Eb7 and Cm, and knowing whether it should be D or Db.  The chart above is 'Street Life', https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cnNyxy7XPfs , 1m07s to 1m23s under the verse, and then again in the solos at 3m10s to 3m27s.

[DaveFry]

On 26/03/2020 at 20:29, paul_c2 said:

Bass (and guitar) have the advantage that once the light bulb illuminates, modes across all 12 keys (okay...there's actually 15 keys) are pretty much the same complexity.

On something like a flute or a trumpet, you need to do some further logical thinking to "get to" the modes and its harder.

How do you get 15 ?

Aren’t there 22 ( 11 major and 11 minor ) ?