Blown away by the bass tone

[GisserD]

19 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

Bit annoying if you have to fork out another £100+ for a midi pedal to quickly scroll up and down your patch selection though during a live set - or is that something that can be easily done on the pedal itself? 

Yeah but if you have more than one SA pedal already, (which most folk do these days it seems) it makes absolute sense to get a hub. 

Acess to scenes, and 128 presets shouldn't be underestimated. 6 presets is hugely limiting on a pedal that can do so much. 

[Al Krow]

35 minutes ago, GisserD said:

Yeah but if you have more than one SA pedal already, (which most folk do these days it seems) it makes absolute sense to get a hub. 

Acess to scenes, and 128 presets shouldn't be underestimated. 6 presets is hugely limiting on a pedal that can do so much. 

Thanks Darren - and agreed. It's just that if you're buying this stuff new, then the cost of SA C4, Neurohub and midi pedal for scrolling through the patches starts to add up (£400+ ?) - I appreciate if you have several SA devices the cost of the hub and midi is a one-off.

It does make the FI, which is pretty much "good to go" without the additional bells and whistles needed for the C4, other than a Roland UM-One Mk2 midi cable to connect to your PC for patch editing, surprisingly attractive in comparison in terms of both cost and pedal board real estate - particularly if it gets rehoused in your excellent bespoke casing - shameless plug! 😊

I guess it's kinda reminded me of why I went for the poor man's synth emulator of the Boss SY-1 at "just" £175 with the immediacy of dials, which can be relatively quickly adjusted between songs, / no PC editing, very decent octave down and arpeggiator; plus the ability to sustain the synth whilst playing over it. Completely admit that as a synth engine it's not in the same premier league as the FI and C4, but horses (or maybe mule in the case of the Boss 😁 ) for courses eh?

Right, really must get my headphones on and listen to Peter's patches!...

Edited November 8, 2020 by Al Krow

[GisserD]

for the amount we all spend on pedals, whats another £200 for the dogs danglies? 😁

[Cuzzie]

 

12 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

Thanks Darren - and agreed. It's just that if you're buying this stuff new, then the cost of SA C4, Neurohub and midi pedal for scrolling through the patches starts to add up (£400+ ?) - I appreciate if you have several SA devices the cost of the hub and midi is a one-off.

It does make the FI, which is pretty much "good to go" without the additional bells and whistles needed for the C4, other than a Roland UM-One Mk2 midi cable to connect to your PC for patch editing, surprisingly attractive in comparison in terms of both cost and pedal board real estate - particularly if it gets rehoused in your excellent bespoke casing - shameless plug! 😊

I guess it's kinda reminded me of why I went for the poor man's synth emulator of the Boss SY-1 at "just" £175 with the immediacy of dials, which can be relatively quickly adjusted between songs, / no PC editing, very decent octave down and arpeggiator; plus the ability to sustain the synth whilst playing over it. Completely admit that as a synth engine it's not in the same premier league as the FI and C4, but horses (or maybe mule in the case of the Boss 😁 ) for courses eh?

Right, really must get my headphones on and listen to Peter's patches!...

A decent chunk of people buying/using  midi enabled pedals looking for a sound like this, will already be having or accounting for having a midi pedal, they can do so much more than just scrolling and you bc an combine midi and non midi pedals.

Another easy work around is to have the app open on your phone/pad/computer and attached to the pedal. The app has your own library of saved sounds, or the sounds listed - select the sound, it’s good to go.

Not really sure why there is a constant weight placed on PC editing or not PC editing - it’s there if you want to do it, but if you don’t want to, these pedals where it can be done are more than adequate with stock sounds and available ones. If people prefer ‘dials’ then granted they are not physical ones but the Neuroapp uses dials.

With or without it there a good pedals on the market, but it doesn’t ‘detract’ from them if they have it.

[Quatschmacher]

1 hour ago, Al Krow said:

That's good to know. I'm guessing that most folk are unlikely to want to access more than 6 usable sounds from the C4 for typical live sets: more likely a couple of decent up and down filters and maybe 2 or 3 synth sounds. 

Bit annoying if you have to fork out another £100+ for a midi pedal to quickly scroll up and down your patch selection though during a live set - or is that something that can be easily done on the pedal itself? But I guess you still need the midi pedal to tell you which patch you're actually on due to the lack of indication from any display? 

I guess that's where the FI does have quite a big live use advantage, with a built in display to tell you which patch you're on and the ability to store and scroll through 99 patches on the pedal itself. 

If you’re only using a limited number of sounds (or even if you’re not) you can use a mobile device plugged into the USB port to change patches on the C4 which overcomes the lack of display.

The advantage of a MIDI controller is being able to jump to specific patches without having to scroll through the list. 
 

Anyway, this is a bit off-topic and mightbe more usefully and thoroughly discussed on the C4 thread. 
 

What do you think to the accuracy of the patches?

[Quatschmacher]

2 minutes ago, Cuzzie said:

 

A decent chunk of people buying/using  midi enabled pedals looking for a sound like this, will already be having or accounting for having a midi pedal, they can do so much more than just scrolling and you bc an combine midi and non midi pedals.

Another easy work around is to have the app open on your phone/pad/computer and attached to the pedal. The app has your own library of saved sounds, or the sounds listed - select the sound, it’s good to go.

Not really sure why there is a constant weight placed on PC editing or not PC editing - it’s there if you want to do it, but if you don’t want to, these pedals where it can be done are more than adequate with stock sounds and available ones. If people prefer ‘dials’ then granted they are not physical ones but the Neuroapp uses dials.

With or without it there a good pedals on the market, but it doesn’t ‘detract’ from them if they have it.

Seems we write similar things at the same time.  

[Quatschmacher]

3 minutes ago, Cuzzie said:

If people prefer ‘dials’ then granted they are not physical ones

One could easily hook up to a FaderFox product and have all the physical dials one could wish for. 
 

Also, in the MIDI map there is a parameter which allows one to change what the two control knobs are assigned to on the fly so one has access to potentially 128 knob choices. 

[Cuzzie]

2 minutes ago, Quatschmacher said:

One could easily hook up to a FaderFox product and have all the physical dials one could wish for. 
 

Also, in the MIDI map there is a parameter which allows one to change what the two control knobs are assigned to on the fly so one has access to potentially 128 knob choices. 

Aye that’s a neat trick, but we’ll get told off for yet more spending!

I was just putting out there what could be done with equipment we already own, but the real important one as you point out is assigning functionality to those big knobs on the pedal which are easy to see and turn - that is a real handy thing which requires the minimum of PC editing skills

[krispn]

19 minutes ago, GisserD said:

Yeah but if you have more than one SA pedal already, (which most folk do these days it seems) it makes absolute sense to get a hub. 

Acess to scenes, and 128 presets shouldn't be underestimated. 6 presets is hugely limiting on a pedal that can do so much. 

I believe @Al Krow had a few SA pedals and the hub and eventually bought midi cable too but I don’t think he ever hooked them up for any serious use citing PC editing as laborious or needing too much mental real estate...

this off topic meander appears to be because @Al Krow feels that I might need my hand held in when considering the C4 and any additional costs that I might have. I appreciate that concern and while his aversion to pc editing might factor into his pedal choices I don’t have any issue as I spend most of my at home playing time via the laptop and frequently use UAD plug ins or Logic to create sounds and patches.  I just hope @GisserDand @Quatschmacher are able to tell him how to work his new SY1000 when he gets it 😀

[Al Krow]

14 hours ago, Quatschmacher said:

@Al Krow, here you go, C4 here:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1-4iDvVBcznF2RPZKFsEQfdugkJlBbHbo/view?usp=sharing

Here on FI:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1FsP2kAyLlJQLmhfoYRN0v12hl3w8PQxr/view?usp=sharing

Peter - your FI patch is REALLY good / close!! And I'm guessing that was just a "first stab", i.e. you could get even closer with a bit of tweaking.

You're right that the FI trumps the C4 for this, which is good to know 'cos it's not an uncommon "classic" modern synth keyboard bass tone which is to be found on a bunch of other recent massive hits.

Definitely making me reconsider getting an FI as this is the synth bass tone I've been looking for for a while.

Edited November 8, 2020 by Al Krow

[Al Krow]

1 hour ago, krispn said:

I appreciate that concern and while his aversion to pc editing might factor into his pedal choices I don’t have any issue...

Haha - that was never in doubt, mate!

21 hours ago, Al Krow said:

And, unlike me, I know you will roll up your sleeves and get down into the detail of the PC editor, whereas I'm preserving what little headspace I have for PC editing, for my multi-fxs.

 

18 hours ago, krispn said:

Is this the new thing now? 

In relation to your question on synth emulation vs synth waveform generation - well it's quite a significant point IMO. I'll leave our recognised gurus e.g. @Woodinblack or @Quatschmacher to go into detail if you're wanting any more on that point, as they will no doubt be able to explain it far better than me.

1 hour ago, krispn said:

 I just hope @GisserDand @Quatschmacher are able to tell him how to work his new SY1000 when he gets it 😀

Sadly I will likely be on my own on that one, if I do end up going for an SY-1000 as I'm not sure any other BC'er has gone down the SY-1000 route yet? But I'll hopefully manage to find the on-switch once I have RTFM 😎

[Quatschmacher]

11 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

Peter - your FI patch is REALLY good / close!! And I'm guessing that was just a "first stab", i.e. you could get even closer with a bit of tweaking.

You're right that the FI trumps the C4 for this, which is good to know 'cos it's not an uncommon "classic" modern synth keyboard bass tone which is to be found on a bunch of recent massive hits.

Definitely making me reconsider getting an FI as this is the synth bass tone I've been looking for for a while.

There’s nothing too crazy going on in the patch - single sawtooth oscillator, no resonance. The main work is in having precise control over the attack, decay, and sustain stages of the envelope and the envelope depth. I then added some internal EQ to boost the low end. After I recorded this clip I tweaked it a bit further as I didn’t think I’d quite got it. 

[Al Krow]

1 minute ago, Quatschmacher said:

There’s nothing too crazy going on in the patch - single sawtooth oscillator, no resonance. The main work is in having precise control over the attack, decay, and sustain stages of the envelope and the envelope depth. I then added some internal EQ to boost the low end. After I recorded this clip I tweaked it a bit further as I didn’t think I’d quite got it. 

Cheers buddy - please do share your updated patch and let's give it a listen!

PS what is it on the FI that is allowing you to get so much closer than the C4 on this one?

Edited November 8, 2020 by Al Krow

[Cuzzie]

The more and more I play these synth type sounds, What’s really important aside from a good sound is technique, and employing a different technique from how you may normally play and tweak the parameters slightly to suit whether you have sausage fingers giving you more bass or pipe cleaners.

This goes hand in hand with what @Quatschmacher says about controlling the envelope - the pedal or patch won’t do it alone

[Quatschmacher]

1 minute ago, Al Krow said:

Cheers buddy - please do share your updated patch and let's give it a listen!

PS what is it on the FI that is allowing you to get so much closer than the C4 on this one?

I’ll have another listen to it later today and record a new clip.

As I said in the post you just quoted, it’s about have precise independent control over the attack, decay and sustain portions of the envelope. C4 mostly only allows control over either attack or decay, or where it does allow control over both, they are linked so that adjusting one also adjusts the other. C4 doesn’t have an adjustable sustain stage either. In this patch there is a perceptible attack time giving a short “bwah” kind of sound and then the filter envelope decays a bit but remains relatively open (regulated by the sustain stage), i.e. higher than the initial cutoff value, whereas the C4 nearly always decays straight back to the cutoff value set by the frequency knob. That’s why full ADSR is superior and why I pushed Andras so much to add it to the FI.

[Al Krow]

27 minutes ago, Quatschmacher said:

I’ll have another listen to it later today and record a new clip.

As I said in the post you just quoted, it’s about have precise independent control over the attack, decay and sustain portions of the envelope. C4 mostly only allows control over either attack or decay, or where it does allow control over both, they are linked so that adjusting one also adjusts the other. C4 doesn’t have an adjustable sustain stage either. In this patch there is a perceptible attack time giving a short “bwah” kind of sound and then the filter envelope decays a bit but remains relatively open (regulated by the sustain stage), i.e. higher than the initial cutoff value, whereas the C4 nearly always decays straight back to the cutoff value set by the frequency knob. That’s why full ADSR is superior and why I pushed Andras so much to add it to the FI.

Cheers - look forward to it.

I think what's been particularly useful for me is to hear the difference in action on an actual "real life" synth bass line - makes the theory that you have previously articulated (loads of times I am sure) come alive / sink in. VERY useful thread side-track, thank you!

[Quatschmacher]

5 hours ago, Al Krow said:

Cheers - look forward to it.

I think what's been particularly useful for me is to hear the difference in action on an actual "real life" synth bass line - makes the theory that you have previously articulated (loads of times I am sure) come alive / sink in. VERY useful thread side-track, thank you!

Here's my revised version. I've panned the original more to the left and my version to the right.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1npfteLJDKg2lO7kX9L8HlLs4ACO0rDLv/view?usp=sharing 

[Al Krow]

26 minutes ago, Quatschmacher said:

Here's my revised version. I've panned the original more to the left and my version to the right.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1npfteLJDKg2lO7kX9L8HlLs4ACO0rDLv/view?usp=sharing 

Cheers matey. How did you go about stripping out the original bass line to leave just yours on this and the earlier clips? 

[Quatschmacher]

11 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

Cheers matey. How did you go about stripping out the original bass line to leave just yours on this and the earlier clips? 

I didn't, it's just so close you can't tell it apart. If you listen closely, you can hear both.

Edited November 8, 2020 by Quatschmacher

[Al Krow]

8 minutes ago, Quatschmacher said:

I didn't, it's just so close you can't tell it apart.

Aha! So what would be really interesting would be to hear just your latest isolated bass line for the FI and the one for C4 alongside it.

[Quatschmacher]

1 minute ago, Al Krow said:

Aha! So what would be really interesting would be to hear just your latest isolated bass line for the FI and the one for C4 alongside it.

I'll have to redo it then as I deleted the Ableton files.

[krispn]

And if you can whip up the tabs for the track too while you’re at it  😂

Edited November 8, 2020 by krispn

[Quatschmacher]

29 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

Aha! So what would be really interesting would be to hear just your latest isolated bass line for the FI and the one for C4 alongside it.

I should start charging!

FI: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1jt_LjcAt88wTzkV-9vZvZ0XW36uctWoT/view?usp=sharing

C4: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1_saF0FjZq5WiqlIWwBpxx4IzfpeotcCc/view?usp=sharing

[Quatschmacher]

2 minutes ago, krispn said:

And if you can whip up the tabs for the track too while you’re at it  😂

It's pretty easy to be honest, F#m Aeolian for the most part. 

[krispn]

The whole track borrows heavily from the Dua Lipa Future Nostalgia album sound. Similar sound to my ear. 
 

 

Edited November 8, 2020 by krispn