Major scale query

[Craigster]

Hi all, could anyone help? 

I'm trying to learn and really understand scales. Without rushing into trying to learn every scale known to man, i thought it be good idea first to look up a few online bass major jam scales to play along to ( just to get used to the patterns) 

I looked up c major thinking that id be creating / jamming along to a 7 note major pattern, but in the link the uploader has quoted references to chord patterns to go along with the scale..  i dont understand this? 

Where to the 4 chord patterns come into the scale and what do they refer to? Am confused 😕 

Thanks for help everyone 

 

[PatrickJ]

I'd recommend checking out some basic theory material, Joe Hubbard and Scott Devine have some great stuff if you don't mind paying to access it but there's a ton of free stuff on the web too. 

Very simply each degree of the scale has an associated chord to it, these are major, minor or diminished (ignoring the 7 for now).

For the C major scale this is how the chords line up, the chord number to major / minor relationship is true for any key, only the note values change.

I Chord - C - is major

Ii Chord - D - is minor

III Chord - E - is minor

IV Chord - F - is Major

V Chord - G - is Major

Vi Chord A - is minor

ViI Chord B - is diminished 

You could play the C major scale over these chords and it will (mostly) sound fine, but in the same way a rhythm guitarist or keyboardist plays chords as bass players we need to do the same.  As the bridge between harmony and rhythm our job is to outline the chord progression by playing the chord tones / arpeggios - this is especially true with jazz where you could well be asked to play walking bass lines.  

Do.some research on intervals and chord tones, those concrpts should really help you understand this.  Also since you seem to be into Jazz Learning Walking Bass is a great way to really understand this and where it all sits on the fretboard, or so I'm told.  I'm still trying to perfect it myself.

[Dad3353]

Good evening, Craigster...

An excellent question, and the answers you find will unlock whole swathes of musical knowledge and appreciation. A vast subject, but here's an entry point that might help with your direct query : how are chords built from scales..? Read through this (a couple of times, if need be; take your time to let it sink in...)

Introduction to chords ...

I'll look up a couple of book/methods easily and cheaply available, and post links to 'em here, too.
No get reading... 

[ambient]

What he’s done with the chords is something called harmonisation. Maybe just concentrate on the scale itself for now?

[Craigster]

1 hour ago, PJ-Bassist said:

I'd recommend checking out some basic theory material, Joe Hubbard and Scott Devine have some great stuff if you don't mind paying to access it but there's a ton of free stuff on the web too. 

Very simply each degree of the scale has an associated chord to it, these are major, minor or diminished (ignoring the 7 for now).

For the C major scale this is how the chords line up, the chord number to major / minor relationship is true for any key, only the note values change.

I Chord - C - is major

Ii Chord - D - is minor

III Chord - E - is minor

IV Chord - F - is Major

V Chord - G - is Major

Vi Chord A - is minor

ViI Chord B - is diminished 

You could play the C major scale over these chords and it will (mostly) sound fine, but in the same way a rhythm guitarist or keyboardist plays chords as bass players we need to do the same.  As the bridge between harmony and rhythm our job is to outline the chord progression by playing the chord tones / arpeggios - this is especially true with jazz where you could well be asked to play walking bass lines.  

Do.some research on intervals and chord tones, those concrpts should really help you understand this.  Also since you seem to be into Jazz Learning Walking Bass is a great way to really understand this and where it all sits on the fretboard, or so I'm told.  I'm still trying to perfect it myself.

Thanks PJ Bassist for your post and very useful advice, really kind of you to go into so much detail. 

I never thought about those intervals and associated chords, i just thought of the intervals (numbered 1 to 7) as eg: major 7 or perfect 3rd etc. 

I still cant wrap my head around why you would use the term 'minor' to describe the 2nd and 3rd notes ( D & E) within a MAJOR scale. 

Also, are you saying that wherever and in whatever scale ( minor / major etc) you would find for example: a note D, this would ALWAYS be a D minor? Regardless of its numerical position ( chord position) and similarly, chord 6 note A would always be A minor? 

🤔

[Craigster]

54 minutes ago, ambient said:

What he’s done with the chords is something called harmonisation. Maybe just concentrate on the scale itself for now?

Ok thanks for that advice, 👍

[Japhet]

I found learning about the modes very useful at this stage. It shows how a different chord fits over each individual note in the major scale.

[Craigster]

3 minutes ago, Japhet said:

I found learning about the modes very useful at this stage. It shows how a different chord fits over each individual note in the major scale.

 

[ambient]

18 minutes ago, Craigster said:

Thanks PJ Bassist for your post and very useful advice, really kind of you to go into so much detail. 

I never thought about those intervals and associated chords, i just thought of the intervals (numbered 1 to 7) as eg: major 7 or perfect 3rd etc. 

I still cant wrap my head around why you would use the term 'minor' to describe the 2nd and 3rd notes ( D & E) within a MAJOR scale. 

Also, are you saying that wherever and in whatever scale ( minor / major etc) you would find for example: a note D, this would ALWAYS be a D minor? Regardless of its numerical position ( chord position) and similarly, chord 6 note A would always be A minor? 

🤔

It’s the chord produced that’s minor. Just using those notes from that major scale and producing a chord starting on each note you produce these chord types:

C major7 - C, E, G, B

D minor 7 - D, F, A, C

E minor 7 - E, G, B, D

F major 7 - F, A, C, E

G dominant 7 - G, B, D, F

A minor 7 - A, C, E, G

B minor 7 b5 - B, D, F, A

Same chord types in any major scale. Just the roots would change.

Get a pen and paper and write out the notes from the C major scale, across two octaves. You take alternate notes, so 1 (root), 3 (third), 5 (fifth), 7 (seventh). Do that from each note and you’ll see what I’ve done.

 

Edited April 14, 2020 by ambient

[PatrickJ]

5 minutes ago, Craigster said:

Thanks PJ Bassist for your post and very useful advice, really kind of you to go into so much detail. 

I never thought about those intervals and associated chords, i just thought of the intervals (numbered 1 to 7) as eg: major 7 or perfect 3rd etc. 

I still cant wrap my head around why you would use the term 'minor' to describe the 2nd and 3rd notes ( D & E) within a MAJOR scale. 

Also, are you saying that wherever and in whatever scale ( minor / major etc) you would find for example: a note D, this would ALWAYS be a D minor? Regardless of its numerical position ( chord position) and similarly, chord 6 note A would always be A minor? 

🤔

 

No problem, although I fear I have confused you more than helped.

You wouldn't use the terms major or minor to describe the notes in the scale in the way you are implying, just the associated chords to those degrees in the scale. 

In a major scale, the II chord is always minor.  For example in C major that is D minor,  but in G major it would be A minor. 

[Dad3353]

Craigster...

I rather fear that, with the various posts appearing here (mine included...), you're likely to become more confused. May I suggest (with all due respect to the other posters...) that it may be as well to start from the beginning, and work your way forward, constructing on each step..? To this end, I'd suggest having a look at this site ...

MusicTheory.net ...

... where things are explained in sequence, building a solid foundation before going on. It's pretty easy reading; not difficult at all, and, I'd say, a much faster method for understanding all of these notions. Worth a look..?

[Craigster]

Thanks dad3353, I will surely check out that link. 

I guess I was thinking rather than try to learn a whole bunch I scales in one lump, I could take smaller bites and try playing along to some jam scales as ii was actually learning them. Actually guys all of you are correct in reminding me that I need to learn more than just scales and a whole lot of music theory. 

Thanks again 👍🎶

[jrixn1]

4 minutes ago, Craigster said:

I guess I was thinking rather than try to learn a whole bunch I scales in one lump, I could take smaller bites and try playing along to some jam scales as ii was actually learning them. Actually guys all of you are correct in reminding me that I need to learn more than just scales and a whole lot of music theory.

I second Dad's advice.  As for the jam track, you need a "one chord" jam/vamp; e.g.

 

[Reggaebass]

Hi craigster, not sure if you’ve seen it but Richie Blake has some good videos on scales and modes, I came across him about 6 years ago, I’ve put this one on just to take you to the site 🙂

 

[TrevorR]

9 hours ago, Craigster said:

I still cant wrap my head around why you would use the term 'minor' to describe the 2nd and 3rd notes ( D & E) within a MAJOR scale

You are confusing “scales” and “keys”. In any song in a major KEY the usual chord progressions are built around this pattern... 1 Major , 2 minor, 3 minor, 4 Major, 5 Major, 6 minor, 7 diminished.

The chords within the key derive from the notes which are available to use in the scale. This link explains how the chords are built up from the scale notes...

https://www.fundamental-changes.com/harmonising-the-major-scale/

So in the key of C the notes on the scale are C, D, E, F, G, A, B, C. Using only these notes the standard chords (Root/third/fifth) created are as follows...

1) C E G - C Major - interval between C&E is 4 semitones, a major 3rd, making this a major chord.

2) D F A - D minor - interval between D&F is 3 semitones, a minor 3rd interval, making this a minor chord

3) E G B - E minor - interval between E&G is 3 semitones, a minor 3rd interval, making this a minor chord

4) F A C - F Major - interval between F&A is 4 semitones, a Major 3rd interval, making this a major chord... and so on up the scale...

5) G B D - G Major 

6) A C E - A minor 

7) B D F - B diminished 

If you think about it simple songs on a major key don’t ONLY use major chords, there will be some minor chords thrown in, this relationship between the chords in a key explains why.

Apologies for the God-bothering content but here’s the chord sheet for a song we do at church that demonstrates this for the key of C... there are the above minor chords scattered among the major chords...

Understanding this principle is also really helpful in decoding/deciphering a new song a it gives a clue of what notes/chords might be available to use and might come up next...

 

 

 

Edited April 15, 2020 by TrevorR

[Craigster]

Thank you for this very detailed reply. Going back to where you refer to the root, 3rd and 5th are these also known as the perfect 3rd and 5th and the root unison? 

[PaulWarning]

I remember a thread from a while ago (sorry can't remember their names), someone asked a well known Jazz bassist how he chooses what notes to play, his reply was "Just play the root of the chord to start with then any old bollocks after that" 😂 probably not much help to you, but in my experience if it sounds ok it is ok

[Coilte]

12 hours ago, Craigster said:

 

I'm trying to learn and really understand scales. Without rushing into trying to learn every scale known to man, i thought it be good idea first to look up a few online bass major jam scales to play along to 

 

 

 

[grandad]

10 hours ago, Dad3353 said:

Craigster...

I rather fear that, with the various posts appearing here (mine included...), you're likely to become more confused. May I suggest (with all due respect to the other posters...) that it may be as well to start from the beginning, and work your way forward, constructing on each step..? To this end, I'd suggest having a look at this site ...

MusicTheory.net ...

... where things are explained in sequence, building a solid foundation before going on. It's pretty easy reading; not difficult at all, and, I'd say, a much faster method for understanding all of these notions. Worth a look..?

+1

[Coilte]

IMO you need to begin from the ground up and understand how chord tones are made from scales. Jamming along with scales is great for the ear, but you also need to move swiftly on to CHORD TONES. Here is a great site which will explain in an easy to understand way.

 

https://www.studybass.com/lessons/bass-chord-patterns/chord-tones-are-primary/

Edited April 15, 2020 by Coilte

[PatrickJ]

25 minutes ago, Craigster said:

Thank you for this very detailed reply. Going back to where you refer to the root, 3rd and 5th are these also known as the perfect 3rd and 5th and the root unison? 

@Dad3353 posted a really great link for you.

I agree with his advice that spending a bit of time reading up on basic theory is going to answer all your questions (and more).  I just took a look st the website he recommended and it's perfect for you, reading these chapters will give you the knowledge you seek:

 

[TrevorR]

36 minutes ago, Craigster said:

Thank you for this very detailed reply. Going back to where you refer to the root, 3rd and 5th are these also known as the perfect 3rd and 5th and the root unison? 

These intervals derive from the scale, so, in C (because there are no sharps and flats so it makes the visuals easier...). The C Major scale is... 

C, D, E, F, G, A, B, C.

If you give each note a number to show where it is in the scale you get... 

1 C, 2 D, 3 E, 4 F, 5 G, 6 A, 7 B, 8 C.

The first note in the scale is usually referred to as “the Root”. The 8th as “the Octave” (Latin for Eighth!).  Never heard this referred to as “root unison” - although strictly correct in grammatical terms it sounds made up - it’s always referred to as the root or octave.  This note has a frequency exactly twice that of the root - the scale notes’ frequencies aren’t random, they all have mathematical  relationships. All the other notes are referred to By their position in the scale, so...

Root - C, Second - D, Third - E, Fourth - F, Fifth - G, Sixth - A, Seventh - B, Octave - C.

In the MAJOR scale the distance between the root and the 3rd is 4 semitones - so because it derives from the Major scale, that 4 semitone interval is referred to as a “major 3rd”. 

The C minor scale has some different notes as some of them are flattened by one semitones (including the 3rd - plus the 6th and 7th).

C, D, E♭, F, G, A♭, B♭, C

So in the minor scale the distance between the Root (C) and 3rd (E♭) is only 3 semitones. This three Semitone interval is referred to as the “minor 3rd” because it derives from the minor scale.

Any 4 semitone interval between two notes can be referred to as “a major 3rd”, any 3 semitone interval can be referred to as a “minor 3rd”. For example... “So, from the G you go up a minor 3rd to B flat.”

The 4th and 5th don’t commonly have these major/minor variants so can be referred to as perfect 4ths or perfect 5ths. But just 4th and 5th will do fine. They can be flattened or sharpened but in this case tend to be referred to diminished (down a semitone) or augmented (up a semitone).

Hope that helps explain the terminology.

Edited April 15, 2020 by TrevorR

[jassthebass]

Hi @Craigster

The Youtube channel 12Tone  may be of interest, especially the building blocks area.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCTUtqcDkzw7bisadh6AOx5w

In addition, as somebody stated earlier, I can vouch for Joe Hubbard or Scotts bass lessons to contain useful info - both are worth paying for

 

Have a good day

Edited April 15, 2020 by jassthebass