Wilton Felder/The Ponk!

[NancyJohnson]

At last years SE Bash, during a conversation with @cetera and Mr Reddick, I coined the term Ponk with relation to how some old basses sounded when committed to tape.

Not wishing it to be too detrimental or derisive against early 60s Jazz basses (et al), the recording below dropped into my feed earlier.  While I have no issue with the tone in context, if nothing else, to my ears, it's ponky.

 

[nilebodgers]

Haha, yes - put a ponk on it...

[musicbassman]

What an interesting isolated bass track.

I'm amazed at how much he pushes and pulls the beat, and there's so much damping going on.

Re the 'ponkiness', I'm sure that BC ers could develop a whole dictionary of words to describe certain bass sounds.

So, maybe Ricks go 'dang, dang'

Old Jazzes go ' ponk, ponk'

and maybe P's go 'dom, dom', (or 'tm, tm' if played with a pick)

 

[wateroftyne]

Flats and muting (and, up for debate, a pick). Perfect. 

[NancyJohnson]

Just now, musicbassman said:

So, maybe Ricks go 'dang, dang'

 

Shouldn't that be 'clank, clank'?

[chris_b]

I agree. I really don't like Wilton Felder's bass sound, but as an A list LA session guy he must have been doing something right! Also I believe he used Precisions in the studio.

I guess it's the transistor radio/Dansette record player/car radio thing. The bass had to have a hard sound and be played up the neck in order to be heard, which is also why many players used picks on sessions. This sound is then softened a little in the final mix. These days most of us listen to our music on better players so the way the tracks are mixed has changed, and IMO improved.

Listen to I Want You Back, as it was released and they've mixed most of the "ponk" out and the bass sits shoulder to shoulder to the rest of the instruments. A good producer will listen to the track not the individual instruments.

[wateroftyne]

5 minutes ago, chris_b said:

I agree. I really don't like Wilton Felder's bass sound, but as an A list LA session guy he must have been doing something right! Also I believe he used Precisions in the studio.

I guess it's the transistor radio/Dansette record player/car radio thing. The bass had to have a hard sound and be played up the neck in order to be heard, which is also why many players used picks on sessions. This sound is then softened a little in the final mix. These days most of us listen to our music on better players so the way the tracks are mixed has changed, and IMO improved.

Listen to I Want You Back, as it was released and they've mixed most of the "ponk" out and the bass sits shoulder to shoulder to the rest of the instruments. A good producer will listen to the track not the individual instruments.

I would argue the ponk isn't mixed out - it's as it is on the isolated recording.

[wateroftyne]

I didn't know this, but now I do:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ponk

[linear]

You get a lot of 'ponk' on the polyurethane stringed U-bass, too much really, and it's hard to get rid of.

Is this played with a pick though? Initially, I thought yes, but the more I listen the less I'm sure.

[wateroftyne]

2 minutes ago, linear said:

Is this played with a pick though? Initially, I thought yes, but the more I listen the less I'm sure.

I would have bet the farm on it, but apparently I'm wrong...

[Old Man Riva]

“Ponk”! I really like that!

I’m a big fan of Wilton Felder and his newly-coined ‘sound of ponk’.

His playing and sound on Joni’s ‘Don’t Interrupt the Sorrow’ and ‘Hissing of the Summer Lawns’ tracks from the album of the same name are perfect for me.

Beautifully fluid bass lines, with a little woodiness of tone and a splash of ponk... what’s not to like!

 

Edited April 23, 2020 by Old Man Riva

[chris_b]

1 minute ago, Old Man Riva said:

Beautifully fluid bass lines. . . . . . . . . .

That's what makes him one of the greats.

[Old Man Riva]

24 minutes ago, chris_b said:

That's what makes him one of the greats.

Definitely! Fabulous on both bass and saxophone. A musician I always love listening to.

Over the years I’d assumed he played a Precision, but whatever he used he made it sound wonderful.

I’m a sucker for that late 60s/early 70s bass sound, or rather that should probably be a sucker for late 60s/early 70s bass players!

[Coilte]

6 hours ago, wateroftyne said:

 up for debate, a pick

See post number 40 in the link below. The contributor JTE is a longtime, and well respected member of Talkbass. 

 

https://www.talkbass.com/threads/wilton-felder-tone.1012078/page-2

Edited April 23, 2020 by Coilte

[wateroftyne]

42 minutes ago, Coilte said:

See post number 40 in the link below. The contributor JTE is a longtime, and well respected member of Talkbass. 

 

https://www.talkbass.com/threads/wilton-felder-tone.1012078/page-2

Yeah - I like John (I’m on that thread too), but my ears tell me pick. But like I say, I seem to be wrong.

[NancyJohnson]

My wife just listened to that and said it sounded like rubber bands on a cardboard box.  Haha.

Ponk!

[nikon F]

14 hours ago, wateroftyne said:

Yeah - I like John (I’m on that thread too), but my ears tell me pick. But like I say, I seem to be wrong.

I like #28 in that TB thread ,,,,,,,,,,did you uhmmm ever buy the hat ,,,and err like ya know ,,,,consume it ?😁

[wateroftyne]

1 minute ago, nikon F said:

I like #28 in that TB thread ,,,,,,,,,,did you uhmmm ever buy the hat ,,,and err like ya know ,,,,consume it ?😁

Yes - hence my big fat belly. 😄

(I'm still not convinced it ain't pick, mind)

[nige1968]

22 hours ago, wateroftyne said:

I didn't know this, but now I do:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ponk

And there was me thinking it was just the way Iggy Pop says “punk”

[drTStingray]

2 hours ago, wateroftyne said:

Yes - hence my big fat belly. 😄

(I'm still not convinced it ain't pick, mind)

Bellies aside 😁 to me, it's definitely played with a softish pick with the sound not enhanced in the mix. There's no way you'd get that click at the start of each note without either having long finger nails or a pick. 

When I say 'not enhanced' I mean like the bass sound on Je t'aime Moi etc etc or Everlasting Love where the pick sound on the bass is actually a feature of the song. 

As for the playing, if I didn't know it was Wilton Felder I'd have said Jamerson or Babbitt!! It sounds so much like them. And is it just me or do I hear part of the Bob Babbitt bass line to Tears of a Clown in the breakdown? 

Edited April 24, 2020 by drTStingray

[chris_b]

Probably sounds like Babbitt because he was the bassist on Tears Of A Clown.

The Jackson 5 never recorded in Detroit. Everything they did with Motown was recorded in LA and Wilton Felder seemed to be Motown's first choice for them.

I think listening to I Want You Back and comparing it to your memory is not going to be very accurate. Listen to some bass lines recorded with a pick and then do the comparison. I don't recall seeing Wilton Felder using anything else other than fingers, but as we're all guessing I'm going to leave my opinion there.

[drTStingray]

1 hour ago, chris_b said:

Probably sounds like Babbitt because he was the bassist on Tears Of A Clown.

Listen to some bass lines recorded with a pick and then do the comparison. I don't recall seeing Wilton Felder using anything else other than fingers, but as we're all guessing I'm going to leave my opinion there.

Yes, I was aware Tears of a Clown was Babbitt. However my point was in the build up of the breakdown in I Want You Back, virtually the same pattern of playing argeggios happens. I hadn't noticed the similarity before - probably because I've never heard the isolated bass track of I Want You Back before.

There are many recordings of bass with picks - it's how that initial 'click' or 'ponk' is mixed which makes the difference. Those 60s pop tunes I mentioned above have very trebly clicks, which are mixed that way.

A slightly different example but Tim Commerford is quoted for the first Rage album as having grown his finger nails to get a similar attack - that album also has one of the iconic Stingray sounds. 

Unless you hear these sounds isolated some of the nuance is lost but I'm with @wateroftyne on this - it really sounds like a pick (even though he may not have played with a pick live).

My understanding was Jamerson also did session work with Motown and others in LA?  

Edited April 24, 2020 by drTStingray

[lowdown]

No light stroking of the strings with WF, he really attacked the notes with confidence. Always sounded like fingers to me. 

I thought someone on Talkbass contacted him and he replied that he only played finger style? Or maybe, it was another player I'm thinking of...? 

Certainly a solid, fluid performance, from a player on top of his game at the time

 

Edited April 25, 2020 by lowdown

[Belka]

On 23/04/2020 at 10:10, chris_b said:

I agree. I really don't like Wilton Felder's bass sound, but as an A list LA session guy he must have been doing something right! Also I believe he used Precisions in the studio.

I guess it's the transistor radio/Dansette record player/car radio thing. The bass had to have a hard sound and be played up the neck in order to be heard, which is also why many players used picks on sessions. This sound is then softened a little in the final mix. These days most of us listen to our music on better players so the way the tracks are mixed has changed, and IMO improved.

Listen to I Want You Back, as it was released and they've mixed most of the "ponk" out and the bass sits shoulder to shoulder to the rest of the instruments. A good producer will listen to the track not the individual instruments.

I'm sure he played a Telecaster bass on this track, or perhaps an early single coil precision. It's not a split coil precision to my ears anyway. It also sounds like the tone control is wide open - I remember reading that Motown bassists would record like that, but the engineers/producers processed the sound the treble got rolled off Jamerson himself said something about it being better to be able to take treble away from a bright sound during mixing than having a signal you would have to add to later (I'm sure someone else could quote him better). These days people trying to get that '60s Motown vibe just keep their town all the way down. 

[The fasting showman]

1 hour ago, Belka said:

I'm sure he played a Telecaster bass on this track, or perhaps an early single coil precision. It's not a split coil precision to my ears anyway. It also sounds like the tone control is wide open - I remember reading that Motown bassists would record like that, but the engineers/producers processed the sound the treble got rolled off Jamerson himself said something about it being better to be able to take treble away from a bright sound during mixing than having a signal you would have to add to later (I'm sure someone else could quote him better). These days people trying to get that '60s Motown vibe just keep their town all the way down. 

Yes, i understood it to be a tele bass type 1 also, 'Root down' by Jimmy Smith being another good example of his sound