Advice on a 15" ext.

[fekalizatorius]

Hey there,
Recently I bought a Ashdown MAG300 + MAG410. I recently decided to invest a little more green on a 15" ext. cab (8 ohms). The reason why I decided to go 4x10 + 1x15 so soon, is for mobility - I need to be able to practice anywhere. Ever since I tried carrying around a 4x10" on my own, I got really frustrated. I have a ~200eu budget. Also, I'm not quite sure, if I want to go ashdown. Maybe something different.
Here are some choices, that fit my pocket and are sold in a ~100mile radius of my town:
Ashdown MAG115;
Behringer BA115;
Behringer BB115;
Hartke VX115.
Of course, if I find them S/H, I'll go for them. Maybe some of you guys could give me pointers/tips, which cab to choose. My expectations are simpe: a reasonably priced cab, which doesn't weigh as much as my 4x10", and has enough low end for metal/rock music (5string).
Cheers,
Fek.

[chris_b]

Have you thought about putting wheels or castors on the 410 to make it more mobile? Ashdown 410's and 115's work well together. I would try the cabs before buying to be sure, but there are quite a few here (and on Talkbass) who have successfully mixed Ashdown 10's and 15's.
I have no experience of Hartke and, personally, I wouldn't get Behringer cabs!

[Guest MoJo]

Before I came to my senses, I used to run a Hartke HA5500 into an Eminence-equipped Trace Elliot 2103H (2x10 + horn) and an Eminence-equipped Trace Elliot 1 x 15. Although the 1 x 15 gave a different tone, it added no more bottom end. I suggest you try before you buy or you may be disappointed with the result (or lack of it)

[attachment=21094:HartkeTrace_017.jpg]

Edited February 26, 2009 by bassman2790

[fekalizatorius]

Hey! Thanks guys for the tips!
I was tinking on putting wheels when I bought it first, but after thinking of going full stack, I decided to wait. I've seen many peope, who are happy with ashdown's 10's + 15's, great tone IMO. The only reason, I would want to mix speaker brands, is if specific features on diferent cabs would give any specific boost to my tone/playability (I'm not in search of some more low end or a new sound, but It wouldn't hurt ).
And the 15"-er is an adition just because I need something a bit more portable than a 4x10" if I wont be able to practice in my house. I know some would recommend buying another combo, but I want the same sound to be portable and not cost me more months of saving cash. If I don't recieve some ground breaking pros and cons, on choosing the cab, I will go with Ashdown most likely.
Cheers,
Fek

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='bassman2790' post='419955' date='Feb 26 2009, 06:16 AM']Although the 1 x 15 gave a different tone, it added no more bottom end.[/quote]
+100. The assumption is made that the larger driver size will result in a lot more low end. It won't. The low end output capability of a cab is mainly determined by the total volume displacement of the drivers, Vd. The Vd of the average 4x10 is about 400 cc, that of the average 1x15 300 cc. If one is going to get more LF output by adding 1x15 to a 4x10 the 1x15 should have considerably more Vd than the 4x10, not less.
Where portability is desired for small gigs I'd add a 2x10, not a 1x15. Preferably the same brand, using the same drivers, at twice the impedance of the 4x10.

[stevie]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='420174' date='Feb 26 2009, 04:04 PM']+100. The assumption is made that the larger driver size will result in a lot more low end. It won't.[/quote]

It usually will. It is, of course, always possible to describe an exception that proves the rule but, by and large, the bigger the driver, the more low end.

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='420174' date='Feb 26 2009, 04:04 PM']The low end output capability of a cab is mainly determined by the total volume displacement of the drivers, Vd.[/quote]

The key factor here is not Vd but the efficiency of the system at low frequencies. For the same overall efficiency, a large driver in an appropriate box is always going to extend lower than a smaller one. I might add that this is obvious to anybody with half a brain. Vd is a factor in determining maximum output but is has no relevance to low frequency extension.

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='420174' date='Feb 26 2009, 04:04 PM']The Vd of the average 4x10 is about 400 cc, that of the average 1x15 300 cc. If one is going to get more LF output by adding 1x15 to a 4x10 the 1x15 should have considerably more Vd than the 4x10, not less.[/quote]

Not necessarily. Much depends on the efficiency of the systems at low frequencies. The "average 4 x 10" containing drivers with an Fs of around 60Hz will be quite inefficient at 40Hz compared with a well designed 15" cab.

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='420174' date='Feb 26 2009, 04:04 PM']Where portability is desired for small gigs I'd add a 2x10, not a 1x15. Preferably the same brand, using the same drivers, at twice the impedance of the 4x10.[/quote]

That won't help in the slightest. It will sound the same, only louder.

By the way, the reason Bassman's 15" system didn't add any extra bottom end is probably because it didn't have any extra bottom end to add. That would be par for the course with that cab and the more popular Eminence 15" drivers.

Edited February 26, 2009 by stevie

[bass_ferret]

Flame war approaching

[machinehead]

I always learn something from these type of disagreements.

I'm sure this one will educate me a little more.

Frank

[Hamster]

[quote name='machinehead' post='420524' date='Feb 26 2009, 11:56 PM']I always learn something from these type of disagreements.[/quote]

I think it's more rabbit cleaving than disagreeing

[KennysFord]

Oh Dear oh dear oh deary deary me.
This is going to be soooooooo much fun.
I have to say though that my rig sounds better with 2 4x10's rather than the 1x15 and 4x10.I tried the 15 again on monday night just to be sure i was'nt dreaming and yeah,it was'nt as nice as the 2 410's.

[fekalizatorius]

kennyrodg,
I know for sure, that 2x 4x10's would fit better than a 1x15'er
Anyway,
Bill Fitzmaurice and Stevie - thanks for the theory in LF's, that made it a lot clearer for me
Hope I make up my mind either to stick with my original intent of the 1x15", or go with a 2x10" like Bill mentioned earlier. I don't really care the slightest about increasing low end, I just need portability for situations, when the 4x10" is just too inpractical for use
Cheers,
Fek.

[andrewrx7]

Unusually, I had both my cabs set up for band rehearsal: the good ol' 4x10 and 1x15 combination. If it is of any use, it is a TE 300w head and both cabs are TE to. Both cabs clearly produce a different sound. At one point I was playing and would take one of the leads out to each cab in turn to hear what, if any difference in sound each cab makes. Indeed, after reading other threads recently, I was actually questioning the validity of even using the 1x15 and whether I could get rid.
BUT - all I comment on is what my ears (and those of the others in the band) could hear. With both cabs together - thunderous bass, loads of bottom end with what I can only really describe as (!) a really clear "twang" when I hit the strings hard. Pull the plug from the 15incher, and the bottom thump noticable drops. Pull the plug from the 4x10, and that higher end definition clearly drops. Combined - best of both worlds.
Just my observations - and with my specific cabs. Other cabs will no doubt sound different etc, but thought I'd just post what we could clearly hear on the night.

[skankdelvar]

I'm rather disappointed. I expected skin and hair to be flying by now and yet.....

...radio silence

[KennysFord]

[EBS_freak]

Damn, I had bought the popcorn and everything.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='andrewrx7' post='420828' date='Feb 27 2009, 07:53 AM']Pull the plug from the 15incher, and the bottom thump noticable drops. Pull the plug from the 4x10, and that higher end definition clearly drops. Combined - best of both worlds.[/quote]
Your observations are correct, but not the conclusions drawn. If you were to stack a pair of 4x10s and a pair of 1x15s, or a pair of anything for that matter, similar results would always ensue.

Unplug the bottom cab and the bass response will fall. Two reasons. First. the raised impedance and reduced cone area reduces output by at least 5dB. When output drops you don't hear bass as well, see: Fletcher-Munson equal loudness curves. Second, when run alone the height of the top cab above the floor is sufficient to de-couple the system from the boundary reinforcement offered by the floor, and it does so in the midbass where bass impact is perceived to originate from. With both cabs plugged in the cones in the top and bottom cabs operate as one in the low frequencies and there's no coupling loss.

Unplug the top cab and the midrange and high-frequencies will fall. Again, two reasons. The first is that same cone area and impedance situation as before. The second is that mids and highs are very directional. and if the source is on the floor they simply pass you by unheard.

The notion that adding a 15 will fill in the bottom with a 4x10, or vis-versa, gains credence when one performs the same exercise as you did. But assuming you don't happen to have a pair of 1x15s and a pair of 4x10s lying about to perform the same experiment with different combinations of cabs you simply have no way of knowing that you'll get similar results no matter which combination you may use, including putting a 1x15 atop a 4x10.

Edited February 27, 2009 by Bill Fitzmaurice

[cheddatom]

So do the same experiment with a the 15" on top and report back.

[andrewrx7]

[quote name='cheddatom' post='420966' date='Feb 27 2009, 02:53 PM']So do the same experiment with a the 15" on top and report back.[/quote]

May well try that at the next rehearsal! Will be interesting to hear what the differenc is in light of BF's comments in the above post.

[Hamster]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='420952' date='Feb 27 2009, 02:42 PM']Your observations are correct, but not the conclusions drawn. If you were to stack a pair of 4x10s and a pair of 1x15s, or a pair of anything for that matter, similar results would always ensue.

Unplug the bottom cab and the bass response will fall. Two reasons. First. the raised impedance and reduced cone area reduces output by at least 5dB. When output drops you don't hear bass as well, see: Fletcher-Munson equal loudness curves. Second, when run alone the height of the top cab above the floor is sufficient to de-couple the system from the boundary reinforcement offered by the floor, and it does so in the midbass where bass impact is perceived to originate from. With both cabs plugged in the cones in the top and bottom cabs operate as one in the low frequencies and there's no coupling loss.

Unplug the top cab and the midrange and high-frequencies will fall. Again, two reasons. The first is that same cone area and impedance situation as before. The second is that mids and highs are very directional. and if the source is on the floor they simply pass you by unheard.

The notion that adding a 15 will fill in the bottom with a 4x10, or vis-versa, gains credence when one performs the same exercise as you did. But assuming you don't happen to have a pair of 1x15s and a pair of 4x10s lying about to perform the same experiment with different combinations of cabs you simply have no way of knowing that you'll get similar results no matter which combination you may use, including putting a 1x15 atop a 4x10.[/quote]

I may be a mere bassist with the intellectual capacity of a squashed apricot, but that makes sense [i]and [/i]I understood it according to the laws of noisyness that I've observed with my MkII ears!

[northstreet]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='420952' date='Feb 27 2009, 02:42 PM']Your observations are correct, but not the conclusions drawn. If you were to stack a pair of 4x10s and a pair of 1x15s, or a pair of anything for that matter, similar results would always ensue.

Unplug the bottom cab and the bass response will fall. Two reasons. First. the raised impedance and reduced cone area reduces output by at least 5dB. When output drops you don't hear bass as well, see: Fletcher-Munson equal loudness curves. Second, when run alone the height of the top cab above the floor is sufficient to de-couple the system from the boundary reinforcement offered by the floor, and it does so in the midbass where bass impact is perceived to originate from. With both cabs plugged in the cones in the top and bottom cabs operate as one in the low frequencies and there's no coupling loss.

Unplug the top cab and the midrange and high-frequencies will fall. Again, two reasons. The first is that same cone area and impedance situation as before. The second is that mids and highs are very directional. and if the source is on the floor they simply pass you by unheard.

The notion that adding a 15 will fill in the bottom with a 4x10, or vis-versa, gains credence when one performs the same exercise as you did. But assuming you don't happen to have a pair of 1x15s and a pair of 4x10s lying about to perform the same experiment with different combinations of cabs you simply have no way of knowing that you'll get similar results no matter which combination you may use, including putting a 1x15 atop a 4x10.[/quote]

So..........call me Mr Stupid, but if I understand this correctly, the best sound will be obtained by stacking two cabinets, largely regardless of what's in them? The bottom cab will give the bass, the top cab will give the mid-range, and the combined cone area gives volume and perceived bass response.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='northstreet' post='421321' date='Feb 27 2009, 03:55 PM']So..........call me Mr Stupid, but if I understand this correctly, the best sound will be obtained by stacking two cabinets, largely regardless of what's in them? The bottom cab will give the bass, the top cab will give the mid-range, and the combined cone area gives volume and perceived bass response.[/quote]
More or less, yes. Adding a second cab increases output significantly, with no changes to the amp, and having a higher rig makes it easier to hear the mids and highs. But the frequency duties aren't split to the extent that the bass comes from the lower cab and the mids and highs from the upper, it just seems that way from your vantage point so close to the rig.

[Protium]

Back on topic...
Go for a 2x10, IME Ashdown 15's do not have a great deal of volume available and are designed to be paired with another cab not as a standalone

[bass_ferret]

What a disappointment I like to cite the GK RBH cabs where the 4x10 has 3dB sensitivity and 9Hz LF extension on the 1x15. So f***ed if I know why Flea sticks 1x15's under his 4x10's. Cos its what people expect to see is probably the answer. [url="http://www.gallien-krueger.com/manuals/RBH_Owner_s_Manual.pdf"]http://www.gallien-krueger.com/manuals/RBH...er_s_Manual.pdf[/url]

Edited February 28, 2009 by bass_ferret

[xgsjx]

Something I noticed from reading that manual & I've noticed it before...The 4x10 has a usable response of 31hz to 13khz & the 1x15 has a usable response of 40hz to 13khz.
Does this mean that if you was to compare each individually, the 4x10 would produce a deeper bass? I understand the frequency curve throughout would probably differ considerably as you moved up the octaves.

[Marcus]

[quote name='bass_ferret' post='421580' date='Feb 28 2009, 11:13 AM']What a disappointment I like to cite the GK RBH cabs where the 4x10 has 3dB sensitivity and 9Hz LF extension on the 1x15. So f***ed if I know why Flea sticks 1x15's under his 4x10's. Cos its what people expect to see is probably the answer. [url="http://www.gallien-krueger.com/manuals/RBH_Owner_s_Manual.pdf"]http://www.gallien-krueger.com/manuals/RBH...er_s_Manual.pdf[/url][/quote]

What does he care....... he's hearing IEM's

The GK is just planted on stage to keep the deal going......, he doesn't even hear the GK tone, nore do you get it FOH as he used a Radial DI to feed his IEM's FOH and the GK Rigg !

Rock Stars eh !!!