alexclaber Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 But if you double the cone area you also increase the suspension size by ~1.4 and thus reduce the compliance so it makes less difference than you suggest, all else being equal. And more importantly once you load that driver into a cab you raise the Fs due to Vas being greater than the box volume. As Vas is proportional to Sd (if everything else remains the same) then the larger the speaker the more Fs will be raised by loading it into a cab of fixed size, so what you gained by using a larger driver for the lower free air resonance is lost once the speaker interacts with the enclosure. Which brings us back to my oft repeated point that nominal diameter is a very poor indicator of tone or performance. Alex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skankdelvar Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 So let me get this right. Rather than a lead-filled Durex, if I think of the volume of air shifted as being like a cylinder of something, like, say, cake, I'd get just as good a low frequency using multiple Mr Kipling Mini Apple Pies as I would with a large Black Forest Gateau(x). And being that 6 Mr Kiplings are cheaper than one Gateau(x), the low frequency will be cheaper but taste just as nice. OTOH, given the ratio of cake height to radius (which is approximately constant between the Pie and the Gateau[x]) what would happen, theoretically, if I had a cylinder with a smaller surface area (cake top) but greater 'excursion' (cake height) - e.g something like Tesco's Value chocolate sponge roll. Eh? Eh? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xgsjx Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 I was with you all the way there until you mentioned "Tesco's Value chocolate sponge roll." That killed a good thing. I'm off for a donut. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevie Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 [quote name='xgsjx' post='429418' date='Mar 9 2009, 02:51 PM']I was with you all the way there until you mentioned "Tesco's Value chocolate sponge roll." That killed a good thing. I'm off for a donut.[/quote] ROTFL You know, the best thing about this thread is the heckling. Priceless! (I'll back at ya in just a mo, Alex) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skankdelvar Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 (edited) [quote name='xgsjx' post='429418' date='Mar 9 2009, 02:51 PM']I was with you all the way there until you mentioned "Tesco's Value chocolate sponge roll." That killed a good thing. I'm off for a donut.[/quote] M'mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm....Donuts...(100% Heckle-free. May contain nuts). Edited March 9, 2009 by skankdelvar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevie Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 (edited) [quote name='alexclaber' post='429401' date='Mar 9 2009, 02:27 PM']But if you double the cone area you also increase the suspension size by ~1.4 and thus reduce the compliance so it makes less difference than you suggest, all else being equal.[/quote] I’m not suggesting anything other than that there is a relationship between fs and cone size. Lest we stray off topic here, we were discussing the statement: “Driver size and Fs are independent of each other.” Lots of things change when you change the cone size. [quote name='alexclaber' post='429401' date='Mar 9 2009, 02:27 PM']And more importantly once you load that driver into a cab you raise the Fs due to Vas being greater than the box volume. As Vas is proportional to Sd (if everything else remains the same) then the larger the speaker the more Fs will be raised by loading it into a cab of fixed size, so what you gained by using a larger driver for the lower free air resonance is lost once the speaker interacts with the enclosure.[/quote] What you are saying is that if you increase driver size from 10” to 18” and then take that 18” driver and stick it in a box designed for the 10” speaker you are not going to gain much from the driver’s extra size? Well, that really is a bit of a doh statement and I can’t for the life of me figure where you are going with it. The bigger driver will clearly need a bigger box. How does this relate to driver size and fs? Edited March 9, 2009 by stevie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexclaber Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 [quote name='stevie' post='429495' date='Mar 9 2009, 04:05 PM']What you are saying is that if you increase driver size from 10” to 18” and then take that 18” driver and stick it in a box designed for the 10” speaker you are not going to gain much from the driver’s extra size? Well, that really is a bit of a doh statement and I can’t for the life of me figure where you are going with it. The bigger driver will clearly need a bigger box. How does this relate to driver size and fs?[/quote] Because that is the kind of thing that many bass cab makers do all the time! Look at the AccuGroove Whappo Grande where they put a 21" driver in a cab that would perform better with a good 15". Look at all those 18"s that would perform better with a 15" in there. And so on. Fs on its own does not matter. You also need Vas and Qts to have decent idea of how the driver will perform in a typical box and a larger driver's higher Vas will usually demand a much larger box than the layman would expect or be willing to carry. Alex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fitzmaurice Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 [quote name='stevie' post='429495' date='Mar 9 2009, 12:05 PM']I’m not suggesting anything other than that there is a relationship between fs and cone size.[/quote] Only in the most peripheral way. Size and fs would only be somewhat proportional if all cones were made of the exact same material. They aren't. Otherwise eights with fs values an octave lower than eighteens, and vis-versa could not exist, But they do. To suggest that driver size and fs are intrinsically linked displays lack of a fundamental understanding of driver design. [quote]OTOH, given the ratio of cake height to radius (which is approximately constant between the Pie and the Gateau[x]) what would happen, theoretically, if I had a cylinder with a smaller surface area (cake top) but greater 'excursion' (cake height) - e.g something like Tesco's Value chocolate sponge roll.[/quote] A simpler analogy is that sixteen one ounce weights and one sixteen ounce weight both weigh a pound. Even better: you'll get just as drunk after quaffing two pints as you will with one quart. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexclaber Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 [quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='429528' date='Mar 9 2009, 04:47 PM']Even better: you'll get just as drunk after quaffing two pints as you will with one quart.[/quote] But you'll get more drunk on two British pints than you will on two US ones! Like our watts, they are better. Alex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Jack Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 Could we just get back to the lead-filled Durex, please. I quite liked that bit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EBS_freak Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 [quote name='alexclaber' post='429533' date='Mar 9 2009, 04:51 PM']But you'll get more drunk on two British pints than you will on two US ones! Like our watts, they are better. Alex[/quote] ...but the US have moonshine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexclaber Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 [quote name='EBS_freak' post='429544' date='Mar 9 2009, 05:04 PM']...but the US have moonshine.[/quote] True dat. But a 16 fl oz. pint is just so girly. Alex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharkfinger Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 [quote name='fekalizatorius' post='419792' date='Feb 26 2009, 07:28 AM']Of course, if I find them S/H, I'll go for them. Maybe some of you guys could give me pointers/tips, which cab to choose. My expectations are simpe: a reasonably priced cab, which doesn't weigh as much as my 4x10", and has enough low end for metal/rock music (5string). Cheers, Fek.[/quote] Going back to the original question, what advice would we give fekalizatorius? Given his budget, I would point him in the direction of Dangerboy's 1x15" cab [url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=39142"]http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=39142[/url] I'm frankly surprised someone hasn't bitten his arm off for it at that price. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fitzmaurice Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 [quote name='Sharkfinger' post='430158' date='Mar 10 2009, 06:03 AM']Going back to the original question, what advice would we give fekalizatorius?[/quote] The point of this overblown exercise has been that adding any 1x15 willy nilly will as likely work no better than adding a 2x10, and the 2x10 will give a better modular rig. Fifteen inch drivers that actually work better in the low end than his current 4x10 do exist, the trick lies in finding out if one of those drivers is what's contained within a particular cab. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redstriper Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 [quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='430608' date='Mar 10 2009, 03:35 PM']The point of this overblown exercise has been that adding any 1x15 willy nilly will as likely work no better than adding a 2x10, and the 2x10 will give a better modular rig. Fifteen inch drivers that actually work better in the low end than his current 4x10 do exist, the trick lies in finding out if one of those drivers is what's contained within a particular cab.[/quote] OK - so which specific cab/driver combination would you recommend? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_b Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 [quote name='redstriper' post='430714' date='Mar 10 2009, 04:57 PM']....OK - so which specific cab/driver combination would you recommend?....[/quote] This is post #66. Can we loop round and join it up to post #2? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fitzmaurice Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 [quote name='redstriper' post='430714' date='Mar 10 2009, 12:57 PM']OK - so which specific cab/driver combination would you recommend?[/quote] One that uses a fifteen with no less than 8mm xmax. In the electric bass genre you're as likely to be able to get that information as for the Queen to give you her crown. I believe Alex is currently the only UK source that divulges the specs on the drivers he uses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redstriper Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 You people kill me! The guy asked a simple question - which 15" cab would you recommend to use on it's own or with his 4x10. Hardly anybody has given him a straight answer, just a load of ego driven point scoring which is of no interest to anyone but the pathetic 'experts' trying to promote themselves. If the OP is still bothering to read this post, I'll make it really simple for you - Buy an Ashdown mag115, (used if possible) or buy the unloaded 115 on sale on this very forum and fit an Eminence 3015. I have used both and either way I don't think you will be disappointed, it is a great value single cab solution that isn't too heavy and should do the job nicely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bass_ferret Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='420174' date='Feb 26 2009, 04:04 PM']Where portability is desired for small gigs I'd add a 2x10, not a 1x15. Preferably the same brand, using the same drivers, at twice the impedance of the 4x10.[/quote] Post #5 It what I would recommend. I would not bother with a 1x15. Edited March 10, 2009 by bass_ferret Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redstriper Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 [quote name='bass_ferret' post='430947' date='Mar 10 2009, 08:22 PM']Post #5 It what I would recommend. I would not bother with a 1x15.[/quote] So what! Some people (like Alex) recommend a single 15 and you would not bother with one, which is fine and everyone is free to decide for themselves. This guy decided he wanted a single 15 and he simply asked for advice on which one he should buy, not whether he should buy one at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bass_ferret Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 OK so the next time somebody asks what 15 to get I'll just say none with no explanation. Is that OK with you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redstriper Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 [quote name='bass_ferret' post='431033' date='Mar 10 2009, 09:40 PM']OK so the next time somebody asks what 15 to get I'll just say none with no explanation. Is that OK with you?[/quote] Fine by me.......... You should answer Alex's enquiries. PS: Sorry if I ruffled your feathers ferret. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bass_ferret Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 [quote name='redstriper' post='431045' date='Mar 10 2009, 09:54 PM']You should answer Alex's enquiries.[/quote]?????????????????????????????????? [quote name='redstriper' post='431045' date='Mar 10 2009, 09:54 PM']PS: Sorry if I ruffled your feathers ferret.[/quote] No feathers ruffled. I just dont think I should not say anything, be gagged if you like, if somebody wants to do something I dont think is right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redstriper Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 [quote name='bass_ferret' post='431051' date='Mar 10 2009, 10:03 PM']??????????????????????????????????[/quote] Alex's compact speaker is a single 15. [quote name='bass_ferret' post='431051' date='Mar 10 2009, 10:03 PM']No feathers ruffled. I just dont think I should not say anything, be gagged if you like, if somebody wants to do something I dont think is right.[/quote] Point taken - I don't know what got into me, must be the full moon Anyway everyone knows ferrets have fur, not feathers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skankdelvar Posted March 11, 2009 Share Posted March 11, 2009 [i]Maybe[/i] a 2x10 is better in this instance than a 1x15 - but what weighs more - a Durex filled with 16 x 1 oz. lead weights or a Durex filled with 16 ozs of feathers? And + 1 to the Striper - an ABM 1x15 (or an old Trace) would probably do the job. Prob best avoid Behringers tho'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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