PA advice wanted!

[lozkerr]

Hi everyone,

I'm in the fortunate position of being able to work from home, which means that the money that would normally go on train tickets and grotty Travelodges can be put to more productive use. I'm starting to look at PA systems, and I'd be grateful for da BC massif's thoughts on wattage, innit. I already have a 16 channel passive mixer, so I guess it'll be either powered speakers or passive speakers plus power amp.

I'm wondering how much power would be right for small to medium-sized venues and thinking it would be better to have too much oomph than not enough, although a full Knebworth would be completely OTT for the Dog and Duck and I would expect a dedicated music venue to have a house PA anyway. But something that's under-powered for a six-piece rock band would just be a waste of money.

So I guess the question is - if you have your own PA, how much power does it crank out, and is it enough for your needs? All thoughts and advice gratefully received.

Many thanks,
Laura

 

[Dad3353]

PA for FOH and another for foldback (monitoring...), unless you're going 'In Ear Monitoring', which is a whole art in itself. 'Stereo' is not essential, but useful. Rough guide..? 2 x 500-1000w for FOH, n x 200-500w for monitoring. How many Aux channels on the mixer..? More is better, to enable a mix for the singer and another for the rest; sometimes a mix each is asked for, in which case a digital mixer and powered monitors would fit the bill.
All-new gear can be expensive; s/h might be worth a look if some bands sell up, given the current climate for gigging. What makes..? We have been using HK for some years and find it worth its price, but we're not raucously loud. Many swear by RCF. We don't use subs (FOH for voice, mostly, and acoustic guitar, some keys; no bass in FOH...). Some need subs, though; they need more power and take up space in the venue, in the van and in storage. It's a choice.

Other than that, what's your budget..? That'll dictate much. Hope this helps. 

[jacko]

We use Mackie SRM450s for FOH and they are great for most pubs and wedding venues you'll play.  There are a couple on gumtree in Drylaw for £400 (not mine I hasten to add).

For stage monitoring we each have a mackie thump. 

Edit - The SRM450's are 500 watts RMS and 1000 watts peak  and the thumps are 400 watts RMS and 1300watts peak.  

Edited April 27, 2020 by jacko

[ubit]

I have an Electrovoice PA.  Active speakers. Incredible sound 2 x15 tops with 2 x bass bins

[Dan Dare]

With a PA, the first thing you really need to do is to decide a budget and consider the use it will be put to. Will it be for vocals and maybe an acoustic instrument or two, or do you intend to run the whole band, including bass and drums through it? The usual suspects - see recommendations above - all offer systems at various price points. In the mid price range (rigs that will work for pubs, clubs and similar), the decent brands (Mackie, EV, RCF et al) are all pretty competitive in what they offer. You won't go far wrong with any of them. Don't judge solely by wattage or size, however. As is the case with bass rigs, a bigger number isn't necessarily best at a given price. Not long ago, the DJ at a wedding I played at turned up with a small Nexo system - one sub and two 10+horn tops. The quality and weight of sound was amazing from such a small rig, albeit one that probably cost £5-6k.

[police squad]

I have and use QSC K12 x2 and for bigger gigs I add 2 x KSUB. In total its 4K. It cost 3000 pounds just over 7 years ago.

The K12s I use in my 80s duo and they are superb, even on their own

I love it to bits and have used it outside to quite large crowds, many times. People always comment on the sound.

Totally reliable too, never had a problem

I use it with an Allen & Heath ZED-FX22

Edited April 27, 2020 by police squad

[Happy Jack]

Unless you have complete control of the band (and probably a wireless in-ears system) then IME you should forget about just putting the band through the PA - use the PA as sound support for the band, but keep the backline. Very few pub-rockers are happy to play without backline, and smaller gigs don't need PA support anyway. Besides, what are you going to do about the drummer? 

We've ended up with a position where we retain the backline but keep the volume level on-stage (for want of a better location) fairly low, achieving the desired level on the dancefloor by then adding overall through the PA. This also gives good flexibility between the start of the gig (six people standing near the bar) and the end of the gig (100 whizzed-up punters singing Mony Mony three feet in front of us), with the on-stage volume not needing to be tweaked.

One last thing - you'll need a set of ears in the crowd either to operate the PA or to send signals to the band as to what needs to change. My bands are lucky enough to have @Silvia Bluejay out front with a tablet running the PA, and occasionally making offensive (and borderline obscene) gestures when the band annoys her.

 

[beely]

Like @police squad my band uses QSC tops: K10.2 in our case. Excellent sound and not too heavy. At the moment it is 3 x vocals, acoustic guitar and electric guitar through the PA. That is all we require really, as the venues we play don't need huge amounts of volume. Having said that, the QSC K's can go pretty loud.

I would add that you don't necessarily need to have two subs. It's not always the case that more is better.

[Silvia Bluejay]

36 minutes ago, Happy Jack said:

One last thing - you'll need a set of ears in the crowd either to operate the PA or to send signals to the band as to what needs to change. My bands are lucky enough to have @Silvia Bluejay out front with a tablet running the PA, and occasionally making offensive (and borderline obscene) gestures when the band annoys her.

[itu]

As @Dan Dare wrote, start with the budget. Think about the other details, too. Here are some:

- cables - they cost a bit more than you thought, and reliability is not free (Neutrik, anyone?)

- good looking and reliable stands (speaker, mic, note) are more important than you may think, after all you want to be heard and seen

- do you have a car where everything fits?

- if the system is complicated (like tons of cables), who is able to put it together when in a hurry and lights are still off?

- cables should be marked (they are yours, aren't they?) and you can find your personal ones in the crowded and awfully dark stage (this also includes power, line and mp3 player cables; I downright love colours)

- buy lots of velcros and learn to wrap your cables

- one cable broke or is missing, do you have any spares?

- do you carry the important stuff in decent carrying cases - or in dirty and thin plastic bags? "Oh, it seems to rain... well, let's carry those to my new car, one by one, from that muddy road." (Depending on your mileage, you may add some colourful words to these sentences.)

- did I mention cables?

Our 12 person band has a pair of JBL PRX735 active speakers. They are BIG, but not a single member has anything to say about the sound quality or loudness (up to 133 dB). They are for singers (4), kick, piano&keys, woodwinds (3) and sometimes the guitar. Our mixer is a 24 ch remote controlled Soundcraft.

IEMs we have already bought, but the learning process has only started.

[ubit]

I bought our PA and we went down the route of mic'ing up everything, drums, bass, guitars as well as vocals. We used to do this in every pub we played in. Then one time we got a gig quite a drive away, so we decided to not take the bass bins and just put vocals through the PA.  What a difference. We were balanced and had a decent volume without being ear splittingly loud. Everything was clear and we could hear each other. I realised that we were over killing our sound in small gigs. A vocal PA is good enough for most venues. If you get bigger gigs then putting everything through the PA is justified. People like to hear a band but still be able to chat.

[ubit]

36 minutes ago, Silvia Bluejay said:

1 hour ago, Happy Jack said:

 

One last thing - you'll need a set of ears in the crowd either to operate the PA or to send signals to the band as to what needs to change. My bands are lucky enough to have @Silvia Bluejay out front with a tablet running the PA, and occasionally making offensive (and borderline obscene) gestures when the band annoys her.

 

 

I would like to know more about controlling the PA with a tablet. What gear do you need for this?

[Silvia Bluejay]

6 minutes ago, ubit said:

I would like to know more about controlling the PA with a tablet. What gear do you need for this?

Start by having a look at THIS THREAD for general info, technical stuff, and some tips and tricks. And post there with any questions etc. and we'll be there replying in no time.

[lurksalot]

Sad to say but there may be a fair bit of kit come up for sale in due course , I’m not sure a PA will be needed by anyone for quite some time I fear 

[Happy Jack]

When did 'need' ever interfere with GAS?

 

[Nicko]

23 minutes ago, lurksalot said:

Sad to say but there may be a fair bit of kit come up for sale in due course , I’m not sure a PA will be needed by anyone for quite some time I fear 

^This.

That said, when buying a PA recently it really came down to the fact that powered speakers don't really come in the power range you need for a medium sized pub.  There's speakers in the 2-300 range (ie not enough) and then others in the 1000-1300 range (more than you need).   The other catch is that some speakers claim to have high power but others with lower power (in Watts) quote higher sound power levels (in dB).  I'm sure there must be another thread here covering this aspect.

We ended up with a couple for Mackie Thump which state they are 1300W.  They take the vocals, BVs, my bass and any acoustic guitar although having said that I recently added my own backline rather than DI it and it sounded better to me.

[lozkerr]

Wow. Thank you very much, everyone! Lots there to think about.

@lurksalot, I think you're right about kit coming up for sale - that's why I'm looking now.  Plus, I do have a bit of spare cash what with not having to travel dahn sarf every other week. I don't doubt that any PA I buy will be sitting in store for some time to come, but at least we'll have it to hand when things start up again. 

@Dad3353, the mixer I have is a Peavey PV20 - sixteen mono channels, two stereo aux, two monitor sends and a control room feed. I'm thinking of using the control room feed as the primary audio source for video recording, which would leave two monitor mixes. We haven't really dug into the monitor side of things yet - the front man and I use IEMs but the others generally run with what's available. I'm thinking that IEMs all round would cut down on the gear we need to lug about, so some gentle persuasion may be in order 😊

Our lineup is drums, bass, keys / vox, lead vox and two guitarists. The guitarists have a mix of electric and acoustic; there's even a mandolin lurking in the lead guitarist's armoury. He might have to adapt a wee bit, and stop getting narky when I call him Andy Anderton 😊

@Happy Jack, agreed - I don't think we'd want to lose the backline in any event. We all have DI, so  we could vary what went through the PA depending on venue size and acoustics. The main thing I'm aiming for is to get a PA that will cope with most venues that a covers band will be playing.

One thing about subs - ISTM that they'd provide a fairly stable base if my idea of attaching lighting bars to the tops was workable. Some LED par cans for the stage plus a few fancy effects for the dance floor shouldn't make the rig top-heavy - they're a far cry from the filament-powered monsters I cut my teeth on way back when.

And @itu - oh yes, I can relate to needing cables, more cables and spares. I'm thinking about putting together a sort of standard setup, with cables bundled together, a la Socapex. Maybe make some shorter extensions, with colour-coded connectors. And, of course, have spares. All labelled. Back in the day, I did some voluntary work at a local theatre. The resident tech had had problems with cables going walkies, so he switched to orange instead of black. The thefts miraculously stopped.

So ISTM that a PA with about 1300 watts a side would cover most eventualities. Good points about budget, but TBH I'd rather stretch myself a little than buy something that isn't up to the job. I'm thinking a figure of one-and-a-half to two grand second-hand all-in - obviously I appreciate that new kit will cost more. As for transport - well, my own car is a Defender 90 that only just holds my bass rig, so I suspect I'll need to shell out for a tow bar and box trailer, if I can find somewhere to store it. Edinburgh clowncil gets narky about keeping trailers on the road in controlled-parking areas, the peasants.

Thank you all so much. I really appreciate the advice. Stay safe, everyone.

[Mottlefeeder]

I'll start by saying that I'm biased - we busk under a gazeebo in the rain, so using powered speakers is not an option for us.

Your existing mixer and a separate power amplifier (or two) would give you more versatility and an easier swap out of failed parts. Powered speakers need two cables each, but passive speakers need one cable each and all of your mains needs are at the back of the stage. Also, powered speakers will have smaller speaker enclosures due to the built-in amp, so they use more power to generate the same amount of bass. Passive speakers and power amps are readily available second hand; powered speakers less so.

David

[grandad]

I ran the PA for many years during my weekend warrior years only that I was the one who showed enough interest to do so and was willing to spend the cash. There is a long learning curve to do it well not forgetting the diplomacy involved in trying to please all band members.

From a simple just for vocals to the full band FOH + monitors to nowadays all digitally mixed and wireless controlled is a very wide range in skill and cost. Usually one begins with a simple setup and with experience and learning, work up to a more complex and sophisticated setup.

Much good advice has been given here. You mention that you have a passive mixer so I'd say build from that to start with. I'm afraid that the money you could spend on PA stuff will probably dwarf anything you've spent on bass gear.

I'm sorry to say that backup in case of equipment failure is essential - more cost! If the band is going to chip in money-wise then keep a written record.

I will just mention Yamaha as worthy of consideration, (we all recommend what worked for us).

So for pubs and clubs around 2 x 500W should be fine. 10"s, 12"s or 15"s are a matter of ear & taste depending on what music you play as are subs.

The transportation and storage and care, (cleaning and maintenance), should also be considered. I think I'm the only one who ever washes pop filters on microphones among my music colleagues.

Finally I'll list my present setup which is just a simple lightweight one having sold off all the big stuff. I can't cope with heavy stuff nowadays so I've gone small and lightweight.

Yamaha EMX2 & EMX5 + MG12XU.

Yamaha CBR10s & DBR10s.

I've gone for simple, small and lightweight which includes a get by option should any one item fail.

The part that isn't lightweight is the cables. And that is now redundant for many of the more savvy youngsters on here who will hopefully talk of the benefits of Digital Audio Mixing which looks like the way to go now.

Good luck.

Edited April 28, 2020 by grandad

[Dan Dare]

Amplification is fine to buy used, but be wary of used speakers unless you can be pretty sure they haven't been abused. If buying as a band, I'd suggest that each person owns a particular item (or items) rather than just a percentage of the whole PA. That way, if someone leaves, they just take what is theirs with them and you don't get into arguments about buying them out, what their share is worth, etc. Or worse, selling the whole thing - you never recoup its value - so you can split the proceeds and then have to buy another rig.

Edited April 27, 2020 by Dan Dare

[naxos10]

I was looking for PA speakers late last year as one of our 12" units blew. Eventually settled on some Auditorium III from Studiospares. These are 415w RMS with split bass and treble amps and enclosed in a wooden cabinet. Not had a chance to really test them yet but they sounded great at low level and take a bass guitar really well.

A slight negative is that they are heavier than units with plastic enclosures.

Cost at the time £179 each.

[itu]

12 hours ago, lozkerr said:

Back in the day, I did some voluntary work at a local theatre. The resident tech had had problems with cables going walkies, so he switched to orange instead of black. The thefts miraculously stopped.

Ha! You have learned the same as I have. Colour coding was very helpful in the broadcasting studios. Today there are no people claiming my high quality silicone cables their's as the colours are different, like green, red, yellow, and pink!

Now I know you will make it happen.

[la bam]

Our PA is up for sale - suitable for any event.

HK audio rig (4 cabs containing x2 horns, x4 12s, x4 15s in total). And matrix amps and crossover.

[lozkerr]

2 hours ago, la bam said:

Our PA is up for sale - suitable for any event.

HK audio rig (4 cabs containing x2 horns, x4 12s, x4 15s in total). And matrix amps and crossover.

Could you ping me the full spec? Many thanks.

[la bam]

Hi, link is above, thanks