Gear confusion for live shows

[Berserker]

Hi guys,

I'm a former guitarist and pretty new to the world of bass, and I've never played live (at 39... I know!). I've been offered the bass spot in a gigging cover band after the pandemic is over and I have a couple of things I'm not sure about gear-wise. These will be pubs and small club gigs.

1) How often do you get to use the DI from your amp, or mic it? I really like the sound of my amp (Microtubes 900), and the DI sounds great to me. Do engineers prefer DI pedals? I was thinking of getting a Sansamp or something as a backup, but if engineers will always prefer using that, the overdrive from my amp probably wouldn't get used except for my monitoring (and I really like the sound). Would I be better off getting a DI box like a Radial instead?

2) The amp is 900 watts (I usually run it in 500w mode) and I use a 700w Epifani UL212 cab. Will this be way too much for most small venues? Would I be better off getting 2 smaller cabs so I have the option to run one in 350 or 500w mode, or combine the two for bigger venues?

Sorry if these are beginner questions, I just don't want my lack of live experience to be detrimental to the band and I want to be as flexible as possible for the venues.

[NancyJohnson]

In answer to your questions:

1)  Sound guys will take a feed off anything with an XLR output.  I found it rare that they'll mic up a cabinet.

2)  Headroom.  I used to play in a very noisy punk band, sound guys encouraged us to keep stage volumes down and let the PA and monitors do the job; it was impossible.  You're in a constant battle hearing everyone over the drums.  If you're happy with your tone, stick with what you have and just use the volume control on the amp.

I would say that it would be prudent to consider buying something like a Sansamp BDDI, just to have it in your arsenal.  There's an inevitability that at some point you'll be gear sharing and you'll be warned not to change any of the settings.  At least you can just bung the BDDI into an effects return and send an XLR signal to FoH.

Hope this helps.

[pete.young]

Engineers in pub gigs?

[hooky_lowdown]

With your backline you'll never have the need to DI in pubs or even small venues. You have plenty of power, you'll just need to tweak the amp a little to fit the room. Easy. 👍

[ubit]

If you are playing a pub, use your backline and forget mic'ing up or Di'ing. It's overkill and completely un needed. Keep it simple and you will end up with a more balanced, clearer set up.I have been down this route where we grew bigger and bigger and we finally realised we were kidding ourselves and had gear for the sake of it. It's not the Albert hall you are playing. It is refreshing to use simple backline after being caught in the mire of trying to be too professional.

[ribbetingfrog]

After a few dodgy monitoring experiences my band only play gigs where we can use our own PA and monitors,

Upshot now is I never bring an amp so less to carry. I know I can rely on good monitoring.

 

Always makes life unpleasant when you struggle to hear half the band. If your using house PA I think an amp would be good just in case.

 

There are lots of great bass DI and preamp pedals around, finding the right one is just like finding the right amp.

 

I use the Orange Bass Butler and love it.

Never used a DI pedal I haven’t found to be at least useable. They’re all fine, it’s just finding the right flavour for you. It does give you some useful control over the flavour of your tone.

[gjones]

The DI on your amp will be more than adequate if you ever have to be DI'd to a front of house PA. 

Be aware that your amp will probably have a post/pre EQ button. When it's set at Post, it means the signal going to the PA will include your EQ settings. When it's set at Pre, the signal will be totally unaltered by your EQ settings and will just be a clean signal from your bass, straight to the PA desk. 

[Muppet]

6 minutes ago, ribbetingfrog said:

After a few dodgy monitoring experiences my band only play gigs where we can use our own PA and monitors,

Upshot now is I never bring an amp so less to carry. I know I can rely on good monitoring.

But you need to ensure others in your band can rely on good monitoring too.  Especially when they are relying on it to hear your bass instead of hearing it from your amp. 

[mcnach]

2 hours ago, Berserker said:

Hi guys,

I'm a former guitarist and pretty new to the world of bass, and I've never played live (at 39... I know!). I've been offered the bass spot in a gigging cover band after the pandemic is over and I have a couple of things I'm not sure about gear-wise. These will be pubs and small club gigs.

1) How often do you get to use the DI from your amp, or mic it? I really like the sound of my amp (Microtubes 900), and the DI sounds great to me. Do engineers prefer DI pedals? I was thinking of getting a Sansamp or something as a backup, but if engineers will always prefer using that, the overdrive from my amp probably wouldn't get used except for my monitoring (and I really like the sound). Would I be better off getting a DI box like a Radial instead?

2) The amp is 900 watts (I usually run it in 500w mode) and I use a 700w Epifani UL212 cab. Will this be way too much for most small venues? Would I be better off getting 2 smaller cabs so I have the option to run one in 350 or 500w mode, or combine the two for bigger venues?

Sorry if these are beginner questions, I just don't want my lack of live experience to be detrimental to the band and I want to be as flexible as possible for the venues.

 

Welcome to the light!  

 

1) It depends on the type of gig. For small bar gigs we typically bring our own PA etc, but bass doesn't go through it. For the rest of the gigs, which for me is the vast majority, there's a bigger PA at the venue and yes, my bass is generally DI'd, although on occasion they wanted to give me a microphone AND DI. 

Most sound engineers have their DI boxes, but they're generally more than happy to use the DI on my amp (Mesa D800+ for the past 3 years, it's got a very nice sounding DI). Sometimes, rarely, there's a sound engineer who insists on using his DI box, and I just go with it: it never sounds bad either.

Considering my amplifier really acts as a stage monitor most of the time, I'd be happy with a DI as long as I had a good monitor. I once had to go DI without an amp at a festival when their bass amp broke down... but they had really good monitors and I loved it. It made me realise that any trouble with bass on monitors is merely due to unsuitable monitor speakers.

It's always wise to have a backup DI box: it takes little space, can live in your case permanently. It's unlikely you'll get caught out even if you don't have one, but if you can, why not? 

Another consideration is: do you use overdrive on your bass? Anything above low gain will sound pretty bad on a DI: the higher frequencies on the distortion make it sound fizzy and ugly. Using some kind of speaker emulation in that case can be a very wise move. Some DI boxes already have that function, but there are quite a few stand alone units that will give you that option. I use a lot of overdriven sounds with one of my bands (a RATM tribute band) and for that one I use a DSM OmniCabSim DeLuxe box. I use it as a DI, you can tweak it to simulate different kinds of speakers, and makes overdriven sounds work very well.

 

2) a 212 is not too much, I don't think. You have a volume knob on your amp, use it

Single cabs may be easier to carry/pack, but there's something to be said for being able to use just one hand to carry them so a 212 is not a bad option. I use a couple of 210. Whenever I can, I bring both, even if one is enough when I just need monitoring, because I seem to get a better stage coverage with two cabs, without needing to be louder. Not just me, my band prefers it too. So... if using your 212 is easy... I would stick with it: you can always turn down. Also, the difference between 900 and 500W is not that large, unless you also increase the number of cabs. In fact, I'd focus more on the cabs, if you end up needing more volume. I made that mistake years ago, I went from a 500W to pretty much the same amp but in 800W as I hoped to get a bit more volume... nah, it barely made a difference. Adding another cab, now THAT did make a difference.

I'd also invest in an adjustable high pass filter. It removes the bottom of the bottom. It's been a revelation for me. It's surprising how much you can remove from the very bottom end and still sound big and fat... but you get better definition and it's a godsend when stages are a bit boomy. People often think bass is about the lower frequencies, and to some extent it is, but there's a lot of low frequencies that you actually sound better without.

[NancyJohnson]

2 hours ago, pete.young said:

Engineers in pub gigs?

Limited.  They're there for vocal mixes and will mic the bass drum and snare/hats.  Generally, you would just go with your own backline and just do the levels amoingst yourselves.

[Frank Blank]

3 hours ago, Berserker said:

Sorry if these are beginner questions, I just don't want my lack of live experience to be detrimental to the band and I want to be as flexible as possible for the venues.

Never worry about it, all I ask is beginners questions and I'm 58.

[Berserker]

Wow, so much great info here, thank you all for your input! 

[casapete]

If you decide to go down the route of getting a separate DI box, you really can't go wrong with one of these -

https://www.gear4music.com/Guitar-and-Bass/Behringer-BDI21-V-Tone-Bass-Preamp/6LV

Based on the Sansamp Bass Driver, but over £200 cheaper! I bought one to back up my Sansamp and it's fantastic. For £22 it's a no brainer to stick in your gig bag. 

[lemmywinks]

The first thing you should do is find out what the band are doing, if they put everything through the PA (best option) then you'll just need to DI and sort yourself some monitoring. That might be an amp, in ears or a wedge. Chances are if they are doing this then it will be one of them setting levels with no omnipresent engineer (unless they're on very good money), used to be a hassle but with modern remote tablet based desks this is much easier.

If they need you to provide bass for FoH then it gets more complicated and can be a bit of a compromise as you'll need to have the correct volume and sound for the audience and your own personal monitoring, usually one will end up sounding worse due to not being able to tailor each one individually. PA option is best basically but it all depends on what PA gear they have as well as their own monitoring situation.

 

 

Ignore advice that tells you to not bother with bass through the PA for pub gigs, it's not 1990 any more and I see a lot of bands with good PA setups (2x full range tops will get you there) and in ears on pub circuits, these are usually the better outfits who get better paid gigs. If that's what the band are already doing then take advantage of it. There are no hard rules and those who will tell you putting a band through the PA at pubs is over complicated are either people who have little to no experience of it or those who's band don't have a decent PA capable of doing so. I personally find using IEMs instead of an amp live is much easier to use and setup than any rig I've owned as well as sounding better, I would never have thought that a £30 belt pack and a set of £23 IEMs would sound so clear and remove a lot of the things I hated about gigging, I can put whatever I want through my mix just by sliding my finger on a tablet screen.

[ubit]

18 minutes ago, lemmywinks said:

those who will tell you putting a band through the PA at pubs is over complicated are either people who have little to no experience of it or those who's band don't have a decent PA capable of doing so.

Ahem, we have PLENTY of experience of using a very powerful Electrovoice PA. We were using a big PA for small pub gigs. It became ridiculous. Worrying about DI for everything. We found that it was overkill. People want to be able to enjoy the music but also want to chat amongst themselves. I have seen people recoil at the sight and sound of a whole band coming out of 15 inch speakers with 18 inch subs. We used to mic up drums and cymbals. Everything went through the PA. we did a gig once where travel meant we couldn't take all the gear. We just put the vocals through the tops. What a difference! Balance, simplicity and clarity. People laugh at cover bands with a massive PA playing the Dog and duck!

[lemmywinks]

5 minutes ago, ubit said:

Ahem, we have PLENTY of experience of using a very powerful Electrovoice PA. We were using a big PA for small pub gigs. It became ridiculous. Worrying about DI for everything. We found that it was overkill. People want to be able to enjoy the music but also want to chat amongst themselves. I have seen people recoil at the sight and sound of a whole band coming out of 15 inch speakers with 18 inch subs. We used to mic up drums and cymbals. Everything went through the PA. we did a gig once where travel meant we couldn't take all the gear. We just put the vocals through the tops. What a difference! Balance, simplicity and clarity. People laugh at cover bands with a massive PA playing the Dog and duck!

 

If putting a DI'd instrument through a PA is ridiculous and a worry then you're 100% doing it wrong (it's two cables FFS), if you spent a lot of time and came to that conclusion then you spent a lot of time being wrong. You also don't need a "big PA", just a capable one which these days can be very compact and comparatively cheap. Two tops on stands which are smaller than what we used alongside subs back in the day.

 

It's literally a DI cable and a monitor return, that's it. That replaces trying to make your backline to two jobs, one of which will be compromised on some stages as the ideal volume and sound for the stage will not be the same as those for FoH.

 

The OP might have to use his amp as FoH or the band might have a decent modern PA and use in ears. They might provide monitor wedges and all he needs is a DI box, we don't know so best to give advice after he has asked and we know the situation. Saying that putting a band through a PA is pointless and too complicated and then saying people will laugh at you for doing so is outdated and terrible advice to give anybody about to start gigging though.

[chris_b]

5 hours ago, Berserker said:

Sorry if these are beginner questions . . . . . . . . . .

No, they are sensible concerns.

Unless your guitarist has 2 full stacks, you won't let the side down with your gear. You'll be fine for the gigs you are describing.

Learn to walk before you try to run. Good luck.

 

[peteb]

5 hours ago, Berserker said:

Hi guys,

I'm a former guitarist and pretty new to the world of bass, and I've never played live (at 39... I know!). I've been offered the bass spot in a gigging cover band after the pandemic is over and I have a couple of things I'm not sure about gear-wise. These will be pubs and small club gigs.

1) How often do you get to use the DI from your amp, or mic it? I really like the sound of my amp (Microtubes 900), and the DI sounds great to me. Do engineers prefer DI pedals? I was thinking of getting a Sansamp or something as a backup, but if engineers will always prefer using that, the overdrive from my amp probably wouldn't get used except for my monitoring (and I really like the sound). Would I be better off getting a DI box like a Radial instead?

2) The amp is 900 watts (I usually run it in 500w mode) and I use a 700w Epifani UL212 cab. Will this be way too much for most small venues? Would I be better off getting 2 smaller cabs so I have the option to run one in 350 or 500w mode, or combine the two for bigger venues?

Sorry if these are beginner questions, I just don't want my lack of live experience to be detrimental to the band and I want to be as flexible as possible for the venues.

You are pretty unlikely to have a sound engineer in pubs and they will almost always take the DI from your amp. I do have a Radial DI box (one of those green bass bug jobs) as a belt & braces job, but it is rarely used by sound engineers. 

I would say that running a 500w amp (with the option of more power if needed) into a top quality 212 cab is ideal. You can always keep the master volume down and have more in reserve when you need it. Having plenty of headroom is always good. 

Good luck with your first run of gigging. You seem to have the right gear and approach, so I'm sure that you should be fine... 

Edited May 5, 2020 by peteb

[Happy Jack]

On the whole 'overkill' issue, can I just remind everyone that it's horses for courses.

Like everyone else here, I've seen it done 'wrong' many times - completely OTT PA, enough cabling to re-stage Live Aid, and the punters flocking to the smoker's shelter to escape the racket. So we've learned from that.

My bands go out with different-sized PA depending on the needs of the gig, we always have both backline AND PA support (kick drum only but we could add a couple of overheads if we needed them), plus we have @Silvia Bluejay out front with a tablet controlling the XR18. It ain't complicated, set-up from a standing start is always well under an hour, the amount of 'extra' kit is minimal.

Result? It's a commonplace for us to get compliments from the punters on how good we sound, both the balance and especially the sensible volumes at which we play. Sometimes Silvie gets tapped up by pub rockers in the audience, asking her if she'll do the sound for their band! 

And of course we almost always get re-booked by the venue ...

[ubit]

1 hour ago, lemmywinks said:

If putting a DI'd instrument through a PA is ridiculous and a worry then you're 100% doing it wrong (it's two cables FFS), if you spent a lot of time and came to that conclusion then you spent a lot of time being wrong. You also don't need a "big PA", just a capable one which these days can be very compact and comparatively cheap. Two tops on stands which are smaller than what we used alongside subs back in the day.

 

It's literally a DI cable and a monitor return, that's it. That replaces trying to make your backline to two jobs, one of which will be compromised on some stages as the ideal volume and sound for the stage will not be the same as those for FoH.

I didn't ask for a lesson on how to DI. I said it's unnecessary and can cloud the sound in a small pub. I bought the PA for us to use on larger gigs. We used it successfully on larger gigs but used it also on small pub gigs. It was complete overkill and didn't add to the sound at all. I used to watch other bands playing the same pubs and they had a good sound with just backline. Everyone used to say we were the loudest band locally. Thats because we were mic'ing drums, cymbals, bass, guitars and vocals. We would have to do a soundcheck often in crowded bars where everyone was shouting get on with it!, that's fine! etc.Sometimes it was hard to get out front to hear what you sounded like. A large Pa is a waste in a pub. Unless it's huge pub. Backline is plenty and much easier to manage.

[ubit]

plus we have @Silvia Bluejay out front with a tablet controlling the XR18. 

 

It makes a big difference if you have a sound man/girl controlling your sound. Most pub cover bands will not have this luxury.

[Monkey Steve]

@Berserker as you can see, there isn't one right answer!

I'd suggest you be ready for any situation, and take gear along accordingly.  In my experience, most pubs gigs won't have their own PA and a sound engineer...but I've played some that do.  If there is a house PA and soundman then they will almost certainly expect you to DI.  So find out from the venue whether you're bringing your own PA, and if so, then it's for you and the band to decide whether you are being DI'd or not.  Obviously this is something you should have tried at rehearsal first...

My one tip, if you are regularly going to be DI'd, is to look at something like a Tech 21 VT Bass pedal.  I use this because I play through an Ampeg SVT, but most of the time I don't bring it to gigs.  The VT pedal gives me a pretty good SVT sound, and sits in the signal chain before the DI is taken.  So I still sound like I want to, without needing the Ampeg. If you don't want to sound like an Ampeg then some other pedal may suit you better

Where I am being DI'd I've learned not to be at all bothered at what I sound like on stage and to trust the sound man, and as long as i can hear myself enough to tell if I'm in tune, that's fine.  It also quickly removes me from the on stage squabbling on which guitarists seem to spend half the soundcheck, about who is too loud and whether they can get "their sound" at the volumes the venue is asking them to stick to.  I haven't needed to bring an amp to any gigs for at least five years, and the last time I did it was only because the band I was depping with had a full bass stack (not an Ampeg) that they wanted to bring.  I made sure my signal was DI'd from my pedal board, and just used their amp as my monitor

Edited May 5, 2020 by Monkey Steve

[lemmywinks]

Just now, ubit said:

I didn't ask for a lesson on how to DI. I said it's unnecessary and can cloud the sound in a small pub. I bought the PA for us to use on larger gigs. We used it successfully on larger gigs but used it also on small pub gigs. It was complete overkill and didn't add to the sound at all. I used to watch other bands playing the same pubs and they had a good sound with just backline. Everyone used to say we were the loudest band locally. Thats because we were mic'ing drums, cymbals, bass, guitars and vocals. We would have to do a soundcheck often in crowded bars where everyone was shouting get on with it!, that's fine! etc.Sometimes it was hard to get out front to hear what you sounded like. A large Pa is a waste in a pub. Unless it's huge pub. Backline is plenty and much easier to manage.

It can only cloud the sound in a small pub if you are doing it wrong. Having your amp too loud because you are struggling to hear yourself next to a drummer on a cramped stage can also "cloud the sound in a small pub". You had the reputation as the loudest band locally because your levels were too high. Again you were doing it wrong regardless of the kit you were using.

This isn't difficult.

 

Also "a large PA is a waste in a pub" - if by that you mean compact tops and subs (what a lot of bands use now) then just no. Some of the best sounding pub bands I've seen had tops and subs, they didn't crank their levels but let the equipment do it's job which made them sound better than everybody else. Regardless of volume the low end will sound better with dedicated subs, you don't have to crank it to thunderous levels to hear this.

[ubit]

Just now, lemmywinks said:

it can only cloud the sound in a small pub if you are doing it wrong. Having your amp too loud because you are struggling to hear yourself next to a drummer on a cramped stage can also "cloud the sound in a small pub". You had the reputation as the loudest band locally because your levels were too high. Again you were doing it wrong regardless of the kit you were using.

When drums are mic'd they get louder. We can hear the sound coming from the PA because its a small pub. This makes everything get louder. I do know that you can turn levels down. When a pub is busy, using a PA for instruments makes you tend to push things up. With backline everything is much simpler and usually quieter. Why have bass coming out of two subs or even two tops when you can be heard quite clearly with your backline?

[chris_b]

The OP asked for first steps. . . . . . . . . . and you lot are trying to advise him on how to run a marathon!!!