Gear confusion for live shows

[lemmywinks]

To the OP - you're best just asking the band what their setup is. You may have to take an amp, you may just have to plug into a provided DI box. If you post their reply here then it will be easy to determine what you need to do.

[ubit]

1 hour ago, lemmywinks said:

If putting a DI'd instrument through a PA is ridiculous and a worry then you're 100% doing it wrong

A turn of phrase. It wasn't literally worrying. If you don't have to do it, its one less thing to worry about.

[ubit]

2 minutes ago, lemmywinks said:

To the OP - you're best just asking the band what their setup is. You may have to take an amp, you may just have to plug into a provided DI box. If you post their reply here then it will be easy to determine what you need to do.

Yes, we agree. If the band insist on using a PA and want you to play through it then fair enough. Im saying that for a small pub it's not needed.

[lemmywinks]

1 minute ago, ubit said:

1 -When drums are mic'd they get louder. We can hear the sound coming from the PA because its a small pub. This makes everything get louder. I do know that you can turn levels down.

2 -When a pub is busy, using a PA for instruments makes you tend to push things up.

3 -With backline everything is much simpler and usually quieter.

4 -Why have bass coming out of two subs or even two tops when you can be heard quite clearly with your backline?

1 -Get your drummer on in ears and listen to them suddenly get more control over their playing. Night and day. 

2 -Not necessarily, that can happen for a multitude of reasons. With dedicated monitoring you can turn up and not affect FoH too.

3 -I've found the opposite.

4 -It sounds better and you have control of your onstage sound without changing FoH..

[jacko]

2 minutes ago, lemmywinks said:

 

4 -It sounds better ..

One could argue that putting everything through compact PA speakers just gives the instruments an Homogenised (aka boring) sound.  Using the backline instead can give an amount of 'colour' that compact speakers can't provide.  Obviously the larger the gig the less that matters as no-one will be able to distinguish the bass anyway. 

And to further cloud the issues raised by the OP, I've had a couple of thermal shutdowns that have rendered the amp DI useless so I now insist on having the Di taken from the Radial on my pedalboard.

[lemmywinks]

1 minute ago, jacko said:

One could argue that putting everything through compact PA speakers just gives the instruments an Homogenised (aka boring) sound.  Using the backline instead can give an amount of 'colour' that compact speakers can't provide.  

You could argue that. You'd be wrong (especially about a decent compact full range top being coloured) but you could still argue it I suppose.

 

If the OP's band need him to provide an amp for FoH then he'll need to take one, if not then he has other options.

[peteb]

56 minutes ago, chris_b said:

The OP asked for first steps. . . . . . . . . . and you lot are trying to advise him on how to run a marathon!!!

Quite…! I would strongly advise the OP to ignore the last page or so of posts, just keep it simple and stick with what he is already doing.

The thing is, there are several ways to get a great sound and even more ways to get it wrong. I have seen bands with loads of good gear sound awful because they don’t know to use it, as well as bands using cr*p gear sound terrible. Of course, I have also seen guys who actually know how to operate a mediocre PA system sound fine.

A mate of mine (who I have played in several bands with) runs a big, well known PA hire company that works across Europe and beyond. He says that he hates having to deal with local sound engineers because the vast majority of them are useless. He reckons that most learn how to get a half decent sound from their own set-up without really understanding what they are doing. If they encounter something that they are not used to or have to use different gear, then they haven’t got a clue. What annoys him is that then they won’t listen and learn from people who know they are doing!

FWIW, his preference was to keep things as simple as possible, use amps and for the band to be happy with the sound they were hearing onstage and then for the PA to reinforce that out-front. But that is not the only way to do it – it all depends on the gig, venue, band, etc. We would play pubs using £15k of Meyer Sound gear and often the only things going through the PA were the vocals, a mic in the kick and an overhead for the kit…  

Edited May 5, 2020 by peteb

[bassbiscuits]

The key to pub gigs for me is travelling light.

As others have said you don’t need tonnes of gear. Sounds like you have a decent amp head and cab and that’ll be plenty for most gigs.

I hardly ever go thru the PA and I’m a loud player. I use a 500w Markbass head and I’ve never run out of power at a small or medium sized gig.

Pubs are often in city centres etc with difficult parking, poor load ins etc so bear that in mind.

Keep it simple, travel light and just enjoy yourself. 

[Machines]

In my last band they insisted on IEM only (no amps at all) and the PA to the audience. I struggled to hear the bass  so used my 350w rig as a monitor after a couple of difficult gigs and the difference was worth the lugging.

[phil.c60]

Yep, travel light. Markbass head, Barefaced (or similar, other brands are available, before the "fanboi" line comes out again....) lightweight cab and your good to go for most pub/small venue gigs. DI out of these heads is great, with adjustable level and pre/post eq so if they do want to shove everything through the PA you can use your cab just for monitoring for the first few gigs, even f they are all on in ears while you decide what else you might need. Set up in two minutes flat.  Take down in  two minutes flat. Plenty of time to help with everything else that needs doing which is your main job anyway lol. Easy, flexible and professional enough for a start, you won't look foolish if you turn up with that. If they have some super duper ipad driven full spec pa with a dedicated engineer to run it they should have talked to you about that by now.  If they don't want you to use the cab for monitoring because they either use foldbacks or give you a set of in ears to use then you can still use the head as a di: it doesn't need speaker loading  to run properly, just turn the master to zero and your good to go. It's what I use for recording too.

[lemmywinks]

He isn't starting a band though, he's joining an established gigging one as described in the original post. They may have a decent PA and monitors and their previous bassist just turned up and plugged in, we don't know. That's why he needs to ask them.

[Berserker]

Thanks for all the replies, I will try to get more info from the band about their setup and  figure out the best course of action from there. Sounds like my amp and cab are up to snuff so I'll probably get a Sansamp or something as a backup too. The main thing is I want to be prepared, and make sure any issues aren't due to me not having a piece of gear that every bass player should know about! The guys in the band have been doing it for 20+ years so they're taking a bit of a chance on someone with no live experience.... I just want to make sure they don't regret it!

I know there are many ways to do things and no right way, so I appreciate all your advice.

Can't wait to get on stage!

[Happy Jack]

1 minute ago, Berserker said:

Can't wait to get on stage!

Oi! Join the queue!

 

[ubit]

2 hours ago, lemmywinks said:

1 -Get your drummer on in ears and listen to them suddenly get more control over their playing. Night and day. 

2 -Not necessarily, that can happen for a multitude of reasons. With dedicated monitoring you can turn up and not affect FoH too.

3 -I've found the opposite.

4 -It sounds better and you have control of your onstage sound without changing FoH..

I disagree with pretty much all of that. 

The drummer: Listen to a snare hit acoustically and then miked. Big difference in volume in the small pub.

Dedicated monitoring is not always possible due to space constraints/money constraints

How would that possibly be different? You play quieter because you are through a PA?

In my experience bands have sounded great through backline  WHEN IN A SMALL PUB!

[chris_b]

1 hour ago, Berserker said:

Thanks for all the replies, I will try to get more info from the band about their setup and  figure out the best course of action from there.

I would assume that they would have told you if you needed IEMs or didn't need to bring an amp. 90% of the bands doing the gigs you describe are using their own back line and vocals only PA systems. You are well set up for that scenario.  

You are right to be gathering information with the intention to hit the ground running, but don't spend any money until you've spoken to the band and had at least one rehearsal.

[Happy Jack]

2 minutes ago, chris_b said:

You are right to be gathering information with the intention to hit the ground running, but don't spend any money until you've spoken to the band and had at least one rehearsal.

As ever, bang on the money with that reply Chris. 

[lemmywinks]

45 minutes ago, ubit said:

I disagree with pretty much all of that. 

The drummer: Listen to a snare hit acoustically and then miked. Big difference in volume in the small pub.

Dedicated monitoring is not always possible due to space constraints/money constraints

How would that possibly be different? You play quieter because you are through a PA?

In my experience bands have sounded great through backline  WHEN IN A SMALL PUB!

If you have one of those drummers that buys obnoxiously loud snares then you have lost before you have begun. Otherwise IEMs can really tame them down as they can hear themselves properly. You can also turn their snare mic off entirely so how is that louder? 

 

Dedicated monitoring requires less space than a bass amp, particularly if you're tall. One of the reasons I swapped my amp for a wedge is so I could have more options with limited space.

 

My setup is much simpler and has zero volume on stage, no loudness wars so stage sound is far quieter. My FoH can also be zero if I want, in no way is it louder. How could it be? Better yes, louder no (although it is an option, the PA is far more powerful)

 

Small pubs are probably where the advantage of IEMs or small monitors can be heard the most IME, particularly when space is at a premium and you could be right on top of your amp. Consistent sound on every gig and more room on stage.

Edited May 5, 2020 by lemmywinks

[ubit]

I'm giving up mate. You and I will never agree about using a big PA in a small pub. Just knock yourself out.

[4000]

3 hours ago, ubit said:

Most pub cover bands will not have this luxury.

Or pub originals bands. 😉

[lemmywinks]

2 minutes ago, ubit said:

I'm giving up mate. You and I will never agree about using a big PA in a small pub. Just knock yourself out.

You don't have to agree, you just have to not instantly dismiss it because you failed to make it work. That's on you. Plenty of people are gigging with decent PA in pubs and getting great results.

 

Or you could have a little tantrum 🤣🤣🤣

Edited May 5, 2020 by lemmywinks

[peteb]

2 hours ago, lemmywinks said:

If you have one of those drummers that buys obnoxiously loud snares then you have lost before you have begun. Otherwise IEMs can really tame them down as they can hear themselves properly. You can also turn their snare mic off entirely so how is that louder? 

Small pubs are probably where the advantage of IEMs or small monitors can be heard the most IME, particularly when space is at a premium and you could be right on top of your amp. Consistent sound on every gig and more room on stage.

Far be for me to intervene in a private argument, but just a couple of points:

The first problem is that the biggest and best, fattest snare sounds occur when a decent drummer hits an ‘obnoxiously loud snare’ hard with just the right amount of rim. The trouble is that the such a snare sound risks completely overwhelming everything else in a pub gig, especially one with a small stage area. There are similar issues (to an extent) with certain guitar sounds. The trouble with these types of gigs is always finding the right compromise between getting great sounds and still having a suitable level for playing such small venues.  

Also, speaking purely as a punter, I would have to disagree that low onstage volume with everything coming through the PA. The problem is that pubs can have rooms of all sorts of shapes and they don’t usually have significantly raised stages, so there is often no clear demarcation between the stage and where the audience is. Different parts of the room can have different sounds and if you are stood in the wrong place then things can sound a bit strange without sound coming from the stage area to reinforce what is coming out of the PA speakers. For example, some friends of mine have a band that has completely embraced modern technology and rely totally on IEMs, electronic kit, Kempers, samples, etc. It’s not that it doesn’t sound great, it’s just that it sounds a bit unnatural in a pub (different thing in a decent club venue where it certainly does work). They laugh and say that I’m just old school, but I’m hardly the only person to have told them this. Their bass player came to see one of my bands and thought that we sounded great. He told me that he had to admit, he missed the big sound and physicality of having an amp behind him and a relatively loud stage.  

[Lozz196]

In the times when my old covers band put all instruments into our PA we didn’t even turn them up as loud as the backline/un-amplified drums. It just gave a greater spread and depth of sound to the band to have a presence in the PA. Ultimately we just got fed up of both carrying more gear in order to do this, and sounding too polished - we were a punk covers band, couldn’t sound too good!

[lemmywinks]

38 minutes ago, peteb said:

Far be for me to intervene in a private argument, but just a couple of points:

The first problem is that the biggest and best, fattest snare sounds occur when a decent drummer hits an ‘obnoxiously loud snare’ hard with just the right amount of rim. The trouble is that the such a snare sound risks completely overwhelming everything else in a pub gig, especially one with a small stage area. There are similar issues (to an extent) with certain guitar sounds. The trouble with these types of gigs is always finding the right compromise between getting great sounds and still having a suitable level for playing such small venues.  

Also, speaking purely as a punter, I would have to disagree that low onstage volume with everything coming through the PA. The problem is that pubs can have rooms of all sorts of shapes and they don’t usually have significantly raised stages, so there is often no clear demarcation between the stage and where the audience is. Different parts of the room can have different sounds and if you are stood in the wrong place then things can sound a bit strange without sound coming from the stage area to reinforce what is coming out of the PA speakers. For example, some friends of mine have a band that has completely embraced modern technology and rely totally on IEMs, electronic kit, Kempers, samples, etc. It’s not that it doesn’t sound great, it’s just that it sounds a bit unnatural in a pub (different thing in a decent club venue where it certainly does work). They laugh and say that I’m just old school, but I’m hardly the only person to have told them this. Their bass player came to see one of my bands and thought that we sounded great. He told me that he had to admit, he missed the big sound and physicality of having an amp behind him and a relatively loud stage.  

It's not really an argument!

 

I'm sure you've played with a drummer who buys a new snare that sounds really good, only it makes you blink every time they hit it because it's so overbearing. Best saved for the studio IMO as I can't live with that every few seconds and I wouldn't expect anybody else to either, certainly not paying customers. Then again I've played with amazing sounding drummers who have great control over their volume. One of the best sounding covers band drummers I've played with wasn't at all technically brilliant and was the quietest, most laid back drummer I've been in a band with. He sounded immense mic'd up though and you would never guess it was him if you heard him acoustically. He did spend an eye-watering amount on drum mics though.

 

Personally I've never had the quality FoH sound that we have now, we have the live soundcheck feature on our desk and you can sit out front and listen to yourself, the clarity and even spread is amazing. I don't miss amps at all really, being able to hear everything clearly (and being able to change your personal mix on the fly) outstrips everything for me. 

[peteb]

30 minutes ago, lemmywinks said:

It's not really an argument!

 

I'm sure you've played with a drummer who buys a new snare that sounds really good, only it makes you blink every time they hit it because it's so overbearing. Best saved for the studio IMO as I can't live with that every few seconds and I wouldn't expect anybody else to either, certainly not paying customers. Then again I've played with amazing sounding drummers who have great control over their volume. One of the best sounding covers band drummers I've played with wasn't at all technically brilliant and was the quietest, most laid back drummer I've been in a band with. He sounded immense mic'd up though and you would never guess it was him if you heard him acoustically. He did spend an eye-watering amount on drum mics though.

 

Personally I've never had the quality FoH sound that we have now, we have the live soundcheck feature on our desk and you can sit out front and listen to yourself, the clarity and even spread is amazing. I don't miss amps at all really, being able to hear everything clearly (and being able to change your personal mix on the fly) outstrips everything for me. 

That’s the point about the drummer – small gigs are inevitably a compromise between getting a great sound and be able to make it work in that venue. A drummer can get an awesome snare sound that sounds great to them and to a punter 30 feet away, but there are problems if he is blowing out everybody’s ears onstage and you can’t hear anything else every time he hits the damn thing. However, you do have to accept that the top rock drummers around are all big hitters (e.g. the Kenny Aronoff, Josh Freese, Deen Castronovo & Brian Tichys of this world). But you do need to find a compromise when you are playing in pubs and on small stages.

You may prefer the clarity and spread of a soundless stage, but some musos (like me) and indeed many punters might prefer a more organic, ‘immediate’ sound. To take the example of my mates’ band that I mentioned above, (IMHO) it can sound more like a CD coming out of the PA rather than a live performance. It is undoubtedly different in big venues with proper stages, where only the first few rows can hear the onstage sound anyway.

[ubit]

7 hours ago, peteb said:

where only the first few rows can hear the onstage sound anyway.

What sized pubs are you playing in? 🤔