So, my old Wal Pro IIE....

[CPCustomdubwise]

I should have gone for the Streamer....

my head was turned by Cass Lewis and his Terence Trent D'Arby gig.... but I hated the Thumb the minute I got it home and continue to loathe the damn things to this day

Tje Wal Pro is the only bass from many, many basses that I miss.

[4000]

8 minutes ago, CPCustomdubwise said:

I should have gone for the Streamer....

my head was turned by Cass Lewis and his Terence Trent D'Arby gig.... but I hated the Thumb the minute I got it home and continue to loathe the damn things to this day

Tje Wal Pro is the only bass from many, many basses that I miss.

Interesting. I think the Thumb (certainly the early ones from the ‘80s) is my favourite Warwick, and ironically one of the few I haven’t had. What did you hate about it?

Been watching the TTD gig quite a bit recently on YouTube.  
 

I’ve had loads of basses I miss. Most of them, in fact. 😂

Edited May 8, 2020 by 4000

[CPCustomdubwise]

In order of annoyance...

The balance; it was one of the first 5 strings....with the Schaller bridge...the tiny body and enormous neck just meant I was always having to steady the blasted thing...

Then...the twin emg j piclups very close to the bridge; didn't like the sound and their angled orientation meant they were just a little uncomfortable...

then...that sodding " adjustanut"...the B kept falling off it....

which leads me neatly to the B; whatever strings I used it just didn't do what I wanted.

I am quite prepared to accept that it was my shortcomings as a player and as a setterupperist that lead to this woeful state of affairs, but, whatever, I sold it to a rabid Jack Bruce fan and bought a Stingray.

I think the Thumb is a triumph of overenthusiastic luthiery and design without discipline.... but I don't s'pose Hans-Peter Wilfer will let what I think worry him over much.

[4000]

I think the early 4s at the very least sound wonderful, and probably don’t suffer the balance issues of the 5s. The 5s and 6s I’ve played have generally been very heavy and very unbalanced. As for the just-a-nut, I’ve loved them on the 4s I’ve had (in fact I wish everyone would use something similar) but have never had a 5 so can’t comment on that. 

[TrevorR]

19 hours ago, Misdee said:

Given the ongoing trend for retro gear, if Wal reissued the Pro Basses they would be fighting customers off with the proverbial  unhygienic stick . I know  Wal are back-ordered for years already, but maybe they could expand their operation if they had consistent demand for a bass that was  slightly simpler to manufacture . I would buy one, that's for sure. 

18 hours ago, CPCustomdubwise said:

I asked whether something equivalent to the PRS SE models, perhaps manufactured overseas and quality controlled by Wal, might be an idea, and that I was sure they'd sell by the truckload..

Paul politely and very charmingly stated that there were no such plans at present, nor any particular impetus to introduce them in the future. I think the thing is that they have no shortage of customers, they like the business the way it is now and they may even wish to preserve some concept of purity of their product.

I get that.....but I'd buy a stripped down £1k Wal " SE"  in a flash if one became a thing.

It’s not well known, but in the very early 2000s Pete toyed with this very idea - a Far Eastern built budget Wal. He was in deep discussions with a major UK distributor. I never knew who but my (wildly speculative) guess was someone like Frontline who distributed Laney and Ibanez at the time. I guess the idea was basically something like Tanglewood did with Overwater. Save money through overseas labour costs and CNC woodwork.  In the end, just before the deals were signed, Pete pulled out. My guess was always that he was concerned that he’d lose control of the brand and they’d ultimately, over time, try to water down the essence of what a Wal is... can you imagine, a slab bodied bass with Bartolini soap bars, a skunk stripe maple neck and a BBoT bridge... ...but with “Wal” on the headstock?
 

18 hours ago, Misdee said:

Lets face it a " budget" UK -made  Wal Pro would be 3-4  thousand quid , in all likelihood. That is o.k by me. 

18 hours ago, 4000 said:

I’m pretty sure there would be a market too, but unfortunately I think these days they would still cost a fortune. They would only lack the facings of the Customs and I’m not sure the electronics would really be any/much cheaper to manufacture than the Custom ones; after all, the pickups are the same. Even passive, you’d just be losing the cost of the filters. 

Someone talked about a “simple” Pro bass. In many ways the circuitry in a Pro bass is MORE complicated than a Custom. You go from two small neat removable circuit boards to a circuit board printed onto an extension on the scratch plate. The back of Pro Series scratch plates are a thing of beauty in and of themselves! 
 

 

If a Pro Bass was made in Fetcham, what would you save?  Cost on the exotic body woods, labour in laminating the top and back... that’s about it. You’ve still got a laminated neck, hand carving the neck and body, same hardware. You'd need to tool up for the new electronics and redesign it to fit the changes in internal pickup wiring between the Pro and Custom series, tool up for the scratch plates, more staff and overheads... it’s not coming in shy of £4k...

Frankly I can see why Paul’s not interested.

Edited May 9, 2020 by TrevorR

[GBH]

" It’s not well known, but in the very early 2000s Pete toyed with this very idea - a Far Eastern built budget Wal. He was in deep discussions with a major UK distributor. I never knew who but my (wildly speculative) guess was someone like Frontline who distributed Laney and Ibanez at the time"

If I recall correctly it was Westside Distribution, the Mesa Boogie importer.

[Misdee]

12 hours ago, TrevorR said:

It’s not well known, but in the very early 2000s Pete toyed with this very idea - a Far Eastern built budget Wal. He was in deep discussions with a major UK distributor. I never knew who but my (wildly speculative) guess was someone like Frontline who distributed Laney and Ibanez at the time. I guess the idea was basically something like Tanglewood did with Overwater. Save money through overseas labour costs and CNC woodwork.  In the end, just before the deals were signed, Pete pulled out. My guess was always that he was concerned that he’d lose control of the brand and they’d ultimately, over time, try to water down the essence of what a Wal is... can you imagine, a slab bodied bass with Bartolini soap bars, a skunk stripe maple neck and a BBoT bridge... ...but with “Wal” on the headstock?
 

Someone talked about a “simple” Pro bass. In many ways the circuitry in a Pro bass is MORE complicated than a Custom. You go from two small neat removable circuit boards to a circuit board printed onto an extension on the scratch plate. The back of Pro Series scratch plates are a thing of beauty in and of themselves! 
 

 

If a Pro Bass was made in Fetcham, what would you save?  Cost on the exotic body woods, labour in laminating the top and back... that’s about it. You’ve still got a laminated neck, hand carving the neck and body, same hardware. You'd need to tool up for the new electronics and redesign it to fit the changes in internal pickup wiring between the Pro and Custom series, tool up for the scratch plates, more staff and overheads... it’s not coming in shy of £4k...

Frankly I can see why Paul’s not interested.

I take your point entirely.

On reflection, it would be more appropriate for Paul to do a run of Pro basses and charge more than a standard MK1 Custom , rather than less.  I recall that Status Graphite did a run of early -1980's-style basses to mark some anniversary or other a few years ago.  If Wal were to follow suit with some Pro   basses  I bet they would  all be sold on pre-order in no time at all. I see why that is very unlikely to happen, though.

What I find a bit unsettling in all of this is that the 1980's is now a "vintage" era. How is this possible? That decade was supposed to epitomise modernity. I was young and thin . We had video recorders, walkmans, leg warmers, brass bridges, graphite necks  , active electronics. and mass unemployment.  How has it come to this?

Nowadays  I need  something as heavy as a vintage  Wal to flatten my gut enough to stop the bass pivoting on my belly when I play standing up.😄

 

 

[TrevorR]

3 hours ago, GBH said:

" It’s not well known, but in the very early 2000s Pete toyed with this very idea - a Far Eastern built budget Wal. He was in deep discussions with a major UK distributor. I never knew who but my (wildly speculative) guess was someone like Frontline who distributed Laney and Ibanez at the time"

If I recall correctly it was Westside Distribution, the Mesa Boogie importer.

I think you could be right. The problems of two decade old memory...

[TrevorR]

2 hours ago, Misdee said:

...to mark some anniversary...

Only 8 or so years to go for the Pro bass’s half century anniversary!

[Shaggy]

16 hours ago, TrevorR said:

Someone talked about a “simple” Pro bass. In many ways the circuitry in a Pro bass is MORE complicated than a Custom. You go from two small neat removable circuit boards to a circuit board printed onto an extension on the scratch plate. The back of Pro Series scratch plates are a thing of beauty in and of themselves! 
 

 

 

To paraphrase Mick "Crocodile" Dundee: "That's not a circuit board.......THIS is a circuit board...." (late '70's Moog wackiness in a Gibson RD Artist below)

Back on OP -  have to say I've never tried a Pro IIe, although my '82 MK 1 Custom is so early it has a PB serial number.    Just curious; what's the difference in tone / playbility between the 2 models? 

[White Cloud]

For me, as a former Wal owner, it is the pickups and electronics that make them special. Wal instruments ergonomic design and woodwork - although flawlessly executed to the highest standards - are not particularly ground-breaking or extraordinary. In fact, they are a bit marmite!

Fabulous basses as they admittedly are, lose the pups and electronics and you  completely lose the Wal mojo.

I think a scaled back budget Wal would be a serious mistake. 

Just my tuppence worth.

[CPCustomdubwise]

59 minutes ago, White Cloud said:

 

I think a scaled back budget Wal would be a serious mistake. 

Just my tuppence worth.

Not to be in any way obstreperous about this, but unless I have missed it, nobody has made mention of the " second iteration " of Wal basses called "Pro", produced in the latter half of the 80s. These were single pickup, passive basses with series/ parallel switches; I have never owned one but have played several, including a fretless which I borrowed for a while which was both a scaled back, effecrively "budget" Wal and EVERY INCH a true Wal bass; having previously owned both active Pro and Cuatom Wals, I can confirm that those basses sound like Wals even without the filter pre.

So the precedent does exist.

Edited May 9, 2020 by CPCustomdubwise
typo

[Misdee]

3 hours ago, TrevorR said:

Only 8 or so years to go for the Pro bass’s half century anniversary!

I remember seeing the bass player for The Cure playing a Wal Pro bass , and that must be about 40 years ago! 

Edited May 9, 2020 by Misdee

[White Cloud]

1 hour ago, CPCustomdubwise said:

Not to be in any way obstreperous about this, but unless I have missed it, nobody has made mention of the " second iteration " of Wal basses called "Pro", produced in the latter half of the 80s. These were single pickup, passive basses with series/ parallel switches; I have never owned one but have played several, including a fretless which I borrowed for a while which was both a scaled back, effecrively "budget" Wal and EVERY INCH a true Wal bass; having previously owned both active Pro and Cuatom Wals, I can confirm that those basses sound like Wals even without the filter pre.

So the precedent does exist.

Okay, I understand. Without wishing to be awkward, did the passive Wal Pro's not still include a single passive Wal pickup? 

My point was regarding Wal pickups and electronics. 

 

[Rich]

23 hours ago, TrevorR said:

 In many ways the circuitry in a Pro bass is MORE complicated than a Custom. You go from two small neat removable circuit boards to a circuit board printed onto an extension on the scratch plate. The back of Pro Series scratch plates are a thing of beauty in and of themselves! 

 

The size of the Pro 2E's circuit board is pretty deceptive in truth... It's actually a pretty uncomplicated circuit, and a modern PCB designer worth his salt could probably condense it to a fraction of that size.

[4000]

4 hours ago, White Cloud said:

Okay, I understand. Without wishing to be awkward, did the passive Wal Pro's not still include a single passive Wal pickup? 

My point was regarding Wal pickups and electronics. 

 

I don’t think anyone was suggesting that a “budget” Wal wouldn’t retain the pickups, at the very least. If they were I must have missed it. 

FWIW, Leigh Gorman’s Wal is passive; yet it sounds as Wal as Wal can be.

[CPCustomdubwise]

9 hours ago, 4000 said:

I don’t think anyone was suggesting that a “budget” Wal wouldn’t retain the pickups, at the very least. If they were I must have missed it. 

FWIW, Leigh Gorman’s Wal is passive; yet it sounds as Wal as Wal can be.

Pretty much exactly this !

I totally concur that the pickup IS key to the Wal sound, and losing that would render the thing no longer a Wal.

But the circuitry is surely designed to allow tonal modification or adjustment of that core sound, isn't it...and without the adjustment the core sound is still very much present .

How about this for comparison....back in the day Gibson produced the Les Paul model...then they made a posher one and called it the Custom and a " student " model and called that the Junior. There were distinct price points based on the level of extra stuff you got as you moved through the range, but the basic principle remained constant from bottom to top; the materials and craftsmanship were universally high. A good Les Paul Jnr is a FANTASTIC guitar; many people think one of the greatest ever. In some senses it is the purest essence of the Les Paul....even though it is a slab-bodied, one pickup, basically-finished guitar.

As for slab bodies...well, my Pro 1e had a slab body...one pickup....a not hugely complex circuit by today's standards....it was a Wal Junior, to all intents and purposes...it was also an amazing bass.  It had that sublime v neck they were doing then and it sounded so,so good.

It's all moot, because they don't want to make them anymore and that is completely their prerogative, of course, but I can't channel 6+ grand in the direction of a bass; if they could do a bass that captured the essence of Wal at a manageable price point I don't personally feel that would undermine the brand one iota....Sadowsky, Fodera, Overwater....peer brands have done it and successfully retained the integrity of their flagship ranges.

And that's all I was saying, really. 

[TrevorR]

On 10/05/2020 at 10:08, CPCustomdubwise said:

How about this for comparison....back in the day Gibson produced the Les Paul model...then they made a posher one and called it the Custom and a " student " model and called that the Junior. There were distinct price points based on the level of extra stuff you got as you moved through the range, but the basic principle remained constant from bottom to top; the materials and craftsmanship were universally high. A good Les Paul Jnr is a FANTASTIC guitar; many people think one of the greatest ever. In some senses it is the purest essence of the Les Paul....even though it is a slab-bodied, one pickup, basically-finished guitar.

The joy of smaller-run "budget" guitar models in the 2020s...

 

As @CPCustomdubwise says, it's all a bit moot as Paul doesn't seem to be interested in creating new product lines or resurrecting old ones. In terms of the Reissue Pros comparing them to the original Pro models they were, of course,  simpler but when you analyse it they's still add up to a pretty penny. There was no relatively complicated circuitry compared to the Pros or Customs but the necks were the same quality and construction. I can't recall what Paul is currently charging for a replacement neck these days but I think I recall someone recently saying that it's in the range of £1.5k-£2k+ GBP.  The bodies were hand carved with a thin veneer applied front and back then sunbursted to hide the join. The pickup/s would be (broadly) the same as the customs - or might need redesigning to go back to the older design. Ultimately you're still talking about a £4k GBP bass rather than a £1k Wal.

[TrevorR]

...having said that, I'd just love to have one of those passive reissue Pros... or even better a twin pickup passive reissue Pro with a birdseye or flame maple veneer! Drool...

[4000]

2 hours ago, TrevorR said:

The joy of smaller-run "budget" guitar models in the 2020s...

 

As @CPCustomdubwise says, it's all a bit moot as Paul doesn't seem to be interested in creating new product lines or resurrecting old ones. In terms of the Reissue Pros comparing them to the original Pro models they were, of course,  simpler but when you analyse it they's still add up to a pretty penny. There was no relatively complicated circuitry compared to the Pros or Customs but the necks were the same quality and construction. I can't recall what Paul is currently charging for a replacement neck these days but I think I recall someone recently saying that it's in the range of £1.5k-£2k+ GBP.  The bodies were hand carved with a thin veneer applied front and back then sunbursted to hide the join. The pickup/s would be (broadly) the same as the customs - or might need redesigning to go back to the older design. Ultimately you're still talking about a £4k GBP bass rather than a £1k Wal.

£2k for a neck? 😳

[Misdee]

The new Wals are proportionately much more expensive than the earlier incarnation, allowing for inflation ect. However, the basses that Paul Herman is building now are of the the very highest quality. I would put them up against the very best available, Fodera,  F Bass, whoever. By comparison with similar  builders  nowadays  , Wals prices are o.k.

But then again ,  from  another perspective , I remember  back in the late 1980's when a Status Graphite Series 2 was a few hundred  quid more expensive than a MK1 Wal Custom.  The equivalent Status bass is now a few thousand quid cheaper than a MK1 Wal.   Status Graphite are also a small independent UK- only  manufacturer.    What has happened to make Wal  basses so much more expensive to make ? Is it rising costs, or bigger profit margins? Or both.

Either way is alright with me, by the way. Paul, like anybody else, has the perfect right to charge what he feels his work  is worth, the potential customer can decide to pay it or not. The problem for me is that I can't make my mind up what side of the fence I am on  regarding this.   I am reticent  to pay 6 grand for a bass that used to cost the equivalent to £ 2377 in today's money  (  including  the blue "dogbone" case) back  in 1988. But the again I really want one. All the time I keep  prevaricating the prices are going up and the wait time is getting longer  (so obviously  plenty of folks think the price is ok!)

 

Edited May 12, 2020 by Misdee

[Misdee]

On 09/05/2020 at 18:54, CPCustomdubwise said:

Not to be in any way obstreperous about this, but unless I have missed it, nobody has made mention of the " second iteration " of Wal basses called "Pro", produced in the latter half of the 80s. These were single pickup, passive basses with series/ parallel switches; I have never owned one but have played several, including a fretless which I borrowed for a while which was both a scaled back, effecrively "budget" Wal and EVERY INCH a true Wal bass; having previously owned both active Pro and Cuatom Wals, I can confirm that those basses sound like Wals even without the filter pre.

So the precedent does exist.

 I remember playing  those basses ,  sunburst with one passive pickup towards the bridge and little toggle switch.   More like a simplified Custom than the  original Pro . They were indeed very tasty basses. 

[CPCustomdubwise]

2 hours ago, Misdee said:

The new Wals are proportionately much more expensive than the earlier incarnation, allowing for inflation ect. However, the basses that Paul Herman is building now are of the the very highest quality. I would put them up against the very best available, Fodera,  F Bass, whoever. By comparison with similar  builders  nowadays  , Wals prices are o.k.

But then again ,  from  another perspective , I remember  back in the late 1980's when a Status Graphite Series 2 was a few hundred  quid more expensive than a MK1 Wal Custom.  The equivalent Status bass is now a few thousand quid cheaper than a MK1 Wal.   Status Graphite are also a small independent UK- only  manufacturer.    What has happened to make Wal  basses so much more expensive to make ? Is it rising costs, or bigger profit margins? Or both.

Either way is alright with me, by the way. Paul, like anybody else, has the perfect right to charge what he feels his work  is worth, the potential customer can decide to pay it or not. The problem for me is that I can't make my mind up what side of the fence I am on  regarding this.   I am reticent  to pay 6 grand for a bass that used to cost the equivalent to £ 2377 in today's money  (  including  the blue "dogbone" case) back  in 1988. But the again I really want one. All the time I keep  prevaricating the prices are going up and the wait time is getting longer  (so obviously  plenty of folks think the price is ok!)

 

I think all your points are completely valid, and your comparison with Status is thought-provoking.

And another interesting comparison might be with ACG.

TrevorR and others have also made observations about relative values then and now and about the fact that all these things add up to a most inexact science...

And as we have all said, in the end if the guys at Wal are producing instruments which meet their standards and comply with the business model they prefer, then it doesn't matter diddly what anyone else thinks....

But for all that, if they did their equivalent of a Metro....or the SBMM basses.... then I'd be in the queue.

Not holding my breath though.

[4000]

3 hours ago, Misdee said:

The new Wals are proportionately much more expensive than the earlier incarnation, allowing for inflation ect. However, the basses that Paul Herman is building now are of the the very highest quality. I would put them up against the very best available, Fodera,  F Bass, whoever. By comparison with similar  builders  nowadays  , Wals prices are o.k.

But then again ,  from  another perspective , I remember  back in the late 1980's when a Status Graphite Series 2 was a few hundred  quid more expensive than a MK1 Wal Custom.  The equivalent Status bass is now a few thousand quid cheaper than a MK1 Wal.   Status Graphite are also a small independent UK- only  manufacturer.    What has happened to make Wal  basses so much more expensive to make ? Is it rising costs, or bigger profit margins? Or both.

Either way is alright with me, by the way. Paul, like anybody else, has the perfect right to charge what he feels his work  is worth, the potential customer can decide to pay it or not. The problem for me is that I can't make my mind up what side of the fence I am on  regarding this.   I am reticent  to pay 6 grand for a bass that used to cost the equivalent to £ 2377 in today's money  (  including  the blue "dogbone" case) back  in 1988. But the again I really want one. All the time I keep  prevaricating the prices are going up and the wait time is getting longer  (so obviously  plenty of folks think the price is ok!)

 

A Wal is also now something like twice the price of a Sei, GB or top flight ACG or Everson (probably more than twice the price of the Everson) and that I just struggle to justify. Paul can charge what he wants, obviously, but I don’t really see it. 

[roger]

I have never played a Wal and the only urge I’ve ever felt to own one  is because of its value (sad I know!) I’m sure they play great but what I struggle to get a grip of is they’re just ‘bolt on’ and the headstock isn’t even ‘angled’ back, cosmetic maybe but that doesn’t justify the prices, whereas if you look at something like a NT thumb bass, it looks stunning👍 And probably at least half the value of a Wal (S/H) construction/cosmetics wise the thumb appears a better buy (btw, haven’t played one of those either 😆)