Variax Bass Electronics in a Non Variax Bass

[NoirBass]

I am perhaps using the wrong terminology. This article explains that whilst there is some degree of eq to the modelling there are other elements involved in the processing:

https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/roland-vg99
 

I also agree that the modelled tone is not the same as using the actual  bass it is modelling, but it’s generally good enough to get the point across. I also find that the closer you move towards the piezo pickup you can change the nuance of the tone.

[Lfalex v1.1]

^ This ^

I'd saved enough for a Variax bass (back in the day) and was genuinely excited to try one.

I had a lengthy noodle in music shop and made the mistake of grabbing some other instruments to compare it to;

Stingray 2eq

MIA Jazz S1

Streamer LX5

And quite apart from playability, they all sounded more immediate and less synthetic than the Variax. None more so than the Jazz, which I purchased instead!

[Maude]

The way I look at my variax is that it isn't 24 famous basses in one, rather it's a nice bass with a huge amount of tonal options, all easily accessible with a simple rotary switch. 

I do have a spare one that I was going to defret as I think that could really open up some the sounds, especially the doublebass and synth. I'm going to first see if my fretless neck will fit just to see how it'll work. 

[EMG456]

I've played a Vbass on a fretless Stingray and the double bass sounds were very nice indeed.

On either of these systems the basic acoustic tonality of the physical instrument does show through.

[BigRedX]

I've just had a look at the Boss web page for the SY1000 and I'm intrigued. I'd originally written it off as yet another guitar synthesiser with all the problems that pitch to VCO/DCO/MIDI conversion brings (especially for bass guitar), but it looks as though it does modelling by signal processing each individual string as well. However the description is rather coy as to how the different sounds are achieved.

So some questions for SY1000 users that I can't find answers for on the Boss web site:

1. Can you apply different processing to individual strings (or groups of strings)?

2. Can you route individual strings to different outputs for processing via external effects?

3. How much can you alter the input sound without using the synthesis engine? For instance can you apply an alternate tuning via modelling? 

4. Is there a computer-based editor for it?

5. Is the USB connector the only digital output? If so does anyone make a USB to S/PDIF converter with close to zero latency?

6. Does anyone make custom pickups for this with non-standard string spacing - specifically I'm looking for a 6-string pickup with 11-13mm string spacing.

Thanks!

Edited May 11, 2020 by BigRedX

[EMG456]

Can't help you with 1 - 5 but Emmet Chapman modifies hex pickups to match the string spacing on the Chapman Stick so he may be able to help or point you in the right direction?

[Woodinblack]

26 minutes ago, BigRedX said:

I've just had a look at the Boss web page for the SY1000 and I'm intrigued. I'd originally written it off as yet another guitar synthesiser with all the problems that pitch to VCO/DCO/MIDI conversion brings (especially for bass guitar), but it looks as though it does modelling by signal processing each individual string as well. However the description is rather coy as to how the different sounds are achieved.

So some questions for SY1000 users that I can't find answers for on the Boss web site:

1. Can you apply different processing to individual strings (or groups of strings)?

2. Can you route individual strings to different outputs for processing via external effects?

3. How much can you alter the input sound without using the synthesis engine? For instance can you apply an alternate tuning via modelling? 

4. Is there a computer-based editor for it?

5. Is the USB connector the only digital output? If so does anyone make a USB to S/PDIF converter with close to zero latency?

6. Does anyone make custom pickups for this with non-standard string spacing - specifically I'm looking for a 6-string pickup with 11-13mm string spacing.

Thanks!

Just going on the info on the net, not having one or any special knowledge of these things.

1) You can apply processing to just some strings, the old GK you could apply effects to individual strings but not different effects to different strings. the manual is here though, so should say:

https://static.roland.com/assets/media/pdf/SY-1000_reference_eng01_W.pdf

2) unlikely. Again the manual will say, or maybe the VGUitars website would be a good place to ask

3) you can on the Vb-99 so would seem odd if you couldn't on the SY

4) not sure if it is an editor - there is software for it on the boss website. I remember the GR55 had a better 3rd party editor

5) the only digital audio output, yes. and 6b, don't know.

6) there are a few companies I have seen over the years that make custom pickups. There is a japanese company that does customs. Yamaha do one, as do fishman, don't know what their spacing is. doesn't the GK actually cover up to 12mm anyway? I am not sure. My friend does, but not commercially, as it is fiddly and he gets bored easily

[Pea Turgh]

My cloth ears can’t t detect anything other than EQ variations on that first video.  Nice bass though!

[BigRedX]

Thanks @Woodinblack

Having had a quick scan through the manual it looks as though there is an editor program for the SY1000, and it looks as though you can assign the panning of each string so hopefully I could pan some strings hard left and others hard right to achieve what I want.

And according to the black diagram in the manual each "patch" is made up of 3 instruments each feeding their own effects block. Also it appears (if I have understood this correctly) that the level for each individual string can be adjusted in each instrument, so as long as you don't need all 3 three instruments for a sound, you could set some strings to zero on Instrument #1 and the others to zero on instrument #2 and therefore have some strings being processed by Instrument/FX1 and the others by Instrument/FX2? Or have I completely misunderstood? Or do you need to have all 3 instruments assigned to a string in order for it to sound any good?

If that works then I just need to find a suitable 6 string pickup...

[NoirBass]

Yes, there is a Boss tone studio application for the SY-1000. Your assumptions are correct, you can choose to mute some strings and not others. The FX banks can be dragged around to whichever part of the signal chain you like. I'm not sure about pickups as I've only used the GK-3b, but I'd ask here:

https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?board=321.0

   

Edited May 11, 2020 by NoirBass

[ped]

You can get a breakout box here to send each string to a separate output 

https://www.separate-strings.co.uk

Not sure re the multiple instruments with strings muted but I’ll try it and let you know. 

[BigRedX]

1 hour ago, NoirBass said:

Yes, there is a Boss tone studio application for the SY-1000. Your assumptions are correct, you can choose to mute some strings and not others. The FX banks can be dragged around to whichever part of the signal chain you like. I'm not sure about pickups as I've only used the GK-3b, but I'd ask here:

https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?board=321.0

Interesting. I'm intending to use this with a Bass VI.

So by using the individual string volumes for each instrument block I could have the highest 2 strings only being processed by Instrument 1 and the other 4 only processed by Instrument 2?

The block diagram in the SY1000 manual seems to indicate that the instrument and FX blocks of the same number are always linked. Is this not correct?

One more question (at this stage):

Does sending the device tunings from the controlling instrument other than what it is expecting cause any problems? For instance with the Bass VI the strings are EADGBE (the same as a 4-string bass with two higher strings) while the six string bass option appears to imply a tuning of BEADGC and the guitar option would expect the strings to be an octave higher. Also just to maybe make things more complicated, I actually use EADGCE because I require a drone C on a couple of the songs that we play.

Edit: And another question:

How much lag is there when you change patches? Do things like delay tails pass through a patch change un-effected?

Edited May 11, 2020 by BigRedX

[BigRedX]

30 minutes ago, ped said:

You can get a breakout box here to send each string to a separate output 

https://www.separate-strings.co.uk

Not sure re the multiple instruments with strings muted but I’ll try it and let you know. 

Thanks Pad. It's not individual strings that I need, It's the ability to send different combinations of strings through different instrument/effects combinations. Usually split 4 lowest and 2 highest or 3 & 3.

[NoirBass]

18 minutes ago, BigRedX said:

Interesting. I'm intending to use this with a Bass VI.

So by using the individual string volumes for each instrument block I could have the highest 2 strings only being processed by Instrument 1 and the other 4 only processed by Instrument 2?

The block diagram in the SY1000 manual seems to indicate that the instrument and FX blocks of the same number are always linked. Is this not correct?

One more question (at this stage):

Does sending the device tunings from the controlling instrument other than what it is expecting cause any problems? For instance with the Bass VI the strings are EADGBE (the same as a 4-string bass with two higher strings) while the six string bass option appears to imply a tuning of BEADGC and the guitar option would expect the strings to be an octave higher. Also just to maybe make things more complicated, I actually use EADGCE because I require a drone C on a couple of the songs that we play.

There is a guy on Vguitar forum that has made a Bass VI work with a GK pickup. I believe he used a GK-3, this however would mean that you would have to use a guitar VG unit (like a VG-99) as the GK3 will only work with that. Your other problem would be the C instead of B as the software will only work with the standard B. This could be easily overcome by tuning the string to B and always pitching the string up a semitone in the software. This would mean you couldn't use the direct signal from the guitar though.

Edited May 11, 2020 by NoirBass

[NoirBass]

Bass VI

https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=11283.50

[NoirBass]

SY-1000 Software

I find this guy really grating, but this video gives you an idea of how the software works.

 

[BigRedX]

20 minutes ago, NoirBass said:

There is a guy on Vguitar forum that has made a Bass VI work with a GK pickup. I believe he used a GK-3, this however would mean that you would have to use a guitar VG unit (like a VG-99) as the GK3 will only work with that. You're other problem would be the C instead of B as the software will only work with the standard B. This could be easily overcome by tuning the string to B and always pitching the string up a semitone in the software. This would mean you couldn't use the direct signal from the guitar though.

I think if I can't use my preferred tuning on the Bass VI, then the whole thing is a non-starter, since the tuning difference between the string and the processed sound would drive me nuts when I'm working stuff out at low volume. 

Does this tuning problem extend to the SY1000? because none of the available 6 string modes (standard guitar or B-C 6-string bass) match the Bass VI for tuning? Besides I thought that in modelling mode it was simply processing the string sound.

Really confused now.

[NoirBass]

18 minutes ago, BigRedX said:

Does this tuning problem extend to the SY1000? because none of the available 6 string modes (standard guitar or B-C 6-string bass) match the Bass VI for tuning? Besides I thought that in modelling mode it was simply processing the string sound.

I think so, I've just double checked on my VB-99 and you can't specify what the note of each string the unit should be expecting. The modelling and pitch shifting in the unit assumes the pickup is receiving a 'standard' tuning.

*EDIT* on further reading perhaps you can tune the B string to C?

https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=28477.0

Edited May 11, 2020 by NoirBass

[BigRedX]

Every answer that forum gives throws up another question!

So yes EADGCE tuning might be fine. The device can handle unto 3 semitones down from the expected pitch but I'm tuning up a semitone from B to C. Also a Bass VI being an octave down from conventional guitar tuning doesn't fall into any of the supposedly allowable 6-string instrument ranges.

I think I'm going to have to try and get directly in touch with Boss and see if they can answer my questions

[ped]

I'm using a GK3B on my mini half scale bass and it works fine - I don't think you need to worry about what note the unit is expecting because it'll work with whatever you give it - downturning etc is done manually from whatever pitch you put in, if you see what I mean.

[BigRedX]

24 minutes ago, ped said:

I'm using a GK3B on my mini half scale bass and it works fine - I don't think you need to worry about what note the unit is expecting because it'll work with whatever you give it - downturning etc is done manually from whatever pitch you put in, if you see what I mean.

Thanks Ped. That's what I originally thought, but then there's a whole section in the SY1000 manual about specifying the pickup type, position (for the bass pickup) and scale length of the instrument. Or do these setting just activate a set of pre-sets to get you close to the settings you need for the pickup sensitivity?

And apologies to the OP as usual with Basschat we've gone a bit off topic...

[Maude]

I would imagine Ped was right. 

If it was expecting to see certain notes from certain strings, how would it cope when you start fretting? 

If you're tuning the B string to C then surely it would just 'think' you're playing at the first fret when you play the open string. It also has to cope with bends and vibrato so must just affect whatever you send to it. 

But I am only assuming and you know what they say about that. 

[ped]

Just now, BigRedX said:

Thanks Ped. That's what I originally thought, but then there's a whole section in the SY1000 manual about specifying the pickup type, position (for the bass pickup) and scale length of the instrument. Or do these setting just activate a set of pre-sets to get you close to the settings you need for the pickup sensitivity?

And apologies to the OP as usual with Basschat we've gone a bit off topic...

I think so yes - for example if I choose the Vigier setting and plug in my Wingbass it still works but affects the way things sound, or the way the unit perceives the signal, to a degree. All you then do is set the direction of the pickup and how many strings you want to process (and if using on a five string, is the fifth string at the top or bottom of the pickup). Next you dial in the distance of each bridge point to the pickup, then adjust the sensitivity.

If I plug in my Vigier I can tune the bass however I like and it doesn't make any difference beyond the difference you'd get plugging into anything else. That's the genius of the unit IMO; it does so much but you end up taking it for granted because it's so easy to use in terms of 'playability' - once you've set it up it's as easy as plugging into any multi effect. No latency or anything like that.

[BigRedX]

2 minutes ago, ped said:

I think so yes - for example if I choose the Vigier setting and plug in my Wingbass it still works but affects the way things sound, or the way the unit perceives the signal, to a degree. All you then do is set the direction of the pickup and how many strings you want to process (and if using on a five string, is the fifth string at the top or bottom of the pickup). Next you dial in the distance of each bridge point to the pickup, then adjust the sensitivity.

If I plug in my Vigier I can tune the bass however I like and it doesn't make any difference beyond the difference you'd get plugging into anything else. That's the genius of the unit IMO; it does so much but you end up taking it for granted because it's so easy to use in terms of 'playability' - once you've set it up it's as easy as plugging into any multi effect. No latency or anything like that.

That makes a lot of sense. Since I want to use it in a way that hasn't really been considered by Roland/Boss, it would probably take a little longer to set up and find which of the (wrong) settings works best with my wrong system. What I really want to be able to do is have bass (guitar) type sounds on the lowest 3 or 4 strings and more guitar-like sounds on the 2 or 3 higher ones. It will depend on what song I'm playing whether I need it split 4 + 2 or 3 + 3, although what I've seen from the SY1000 manual those settings appear to be per patch and not global (I hope I've understood that correctly).

[ped]

Just to confirm, I just created a patch for my five string wingbass with a synth on the B and E and clean on the ADG strings so that works fine.

Also worth noting that you can dynamically shift between the two (VB99 has two) 'instruments' on each patch, so for example I have one set up clean but when I dig in I get a synth. It takes a lot of adjusting to get right but can be a good way to achieve what you are after (I think) too.