Close To The Edge - Full Bass Transcription

[visog]

Sorry, forgot Holdsworth's forms being samey.

[Bilbo]

Well they are 😁

[Bilbo]

Actually, in response to the criticism of my tendency towards criticism, in my defence, I would suggest that most musicians are overly impressed by what amounts to journeyman playing and get awfully excited about players who, whilst enjoyable to listen to, are not doing anything too difficult (Pino is a perfect example). I repeatedly hear comments like 'Chris Squire is best bass player ever'. As I said before, I LOVE his playing but 'the best'? Patently nonsense. Berlin can be vapid, I agree. Chops for chops' sake. Squire is probably better to listen to. The great thing is you don't have to choose and can listen to both. 

I agree re Manring. Most tappers are harmonically limited and annoyingly repetitive. Same with Wooten, Alan Caron etc. Great players but I don't own many of their recordings because they don't move me in any way whatsoever. They are impressive but lack emotional content. The point is only that some things are easy to play and some things aren't. The adoration of Squire as an artist is entirely legitimate but, as a craftsman, he is not leading the field. 

It all subjective and my opinions are as valid and as invalid as everyone else's. If you don't like my opinion, don't worry. If you wait around long enough, it is likely that I will have others. 🙄

I probably think about this stuff far too much. 

[Bilbo]

I do enjoy our chats. 

[dmccombe7]

I think i get what you are saying @Bilbo. When you study any bassist they tend to use many of the same fills or chops. Anything i've tried from CS is not super difficult to play when i break it down. Probably much the same for Jeff Berlin. If i break it down i can manage to play most of the runs he does. Where i suffer and fall by the way side is the stamina to keep up with them. I can do each section after a bit of work but trying to play the full song i struggle with probably because i'm not playing as often as them and my technique isn't as honed as theirs.

I'm a fan of Berlin, i find his technique very flowing. It comes across as very natural probably because he's been playing the same chops for so long and for me he excels at it.

The big thing for me with CS (and i'm not a big YES fan) is that he came up with those bass lines. I couldn't. I simply don't have that ability to think up amazing bass lines the way many of the great bass players do. Maybe because i've mostly played in cover bands. 

I can't copy people like Alan Caron as i've never really mastered slap style. I dabble with it. 

Whether we find a bassist musical i think is down to personal taste. I listen to Geddy, Squire or Entwistle and they have an aggression whereas Berlin i find keeps the same level in all his playing and it sounds more "flat" but it suits what he does. 

Then again maybe i've picked you up wrong 

No matter what i'm really enjoying and appreciating all the work you're putting in for us 👍

Dave

 

[Bilbo]

I think you get it, Dave. It's about hearing as much as you can, evaluating what it is about a player that you like or dislike and taking things you value forward in your own playing. That's what makes you different from me and everybody else. 

[mikel]

22 hours ago, Bilbo said:

I guess so. It's not a question of it being more worthy, more a case of recognising the kind of things that are worth investigating if you are looking to explore the potential of the instrument. Nobody 'studies' Steve Dawson of Saxon because everyone can understand it pretty much off the bat. No one can do Michael Manring because it requires a complete adjustment of every shred of technique we have. Everyone else is on a continuum in between. Squire's playing (which I love, by the way, and have done for about 45 years) is nearer Dawson than Manring on that continuum. His lines, whilst interesting and creative, are, in the main, not that difficult to play. 

Again, so its only worth investigating if its difficult? I prefer to investigate things that are musical and lend more to the music. Be they difficult or the simplest thing. Its more about who used it in a certain context and how much it pleases me. In that respect Chris is right up there whereas, for me, widdle merchants are simply trying to squeeze in as many notes as possible.

[Bilbo]

13 minutes ago, mikel said:

Widdle merchants are simply trying to squeeze in as many notes as possible.

That's a tiny bit of a generalisation, don't you think? 

Things that are easy don't need investigation because they are easy. A ballad with one note per bar on the root doesn't need to be 'studied' in the way, say, 'Hit Me With Your Rhythm Stick' would. Most Chris Squire is like that. Study two bars of Roundabout and the rest of it is pretty easy. Same goes for a lot of his stuff. There are exceptions, of course, Relayer being the main one. 

[4000]

I would imagine that the majority of people who post something like “Squire (or insert other name as appropriate) is the best ever” mean that he’s their favourite ever in the context in which he plays, not that he’s “the best” (Whatever that is) technically. 

[Bilbo]

I suspect you are right. 

[mikel]

5 hours ago, Bilbo said:

That's a tiny bit of a generalisation, don't you think? 

Things that are easy don't need investigation because they are easy. A ballad with one note per bar on the root doesn't need to be 'studied' in the way, say, 'Hit Me With Your Rhythm Stick' would. Most Chris Squire is like that. Study two bars of Roundabout and the rest of it is pretty easy. Same goes for a lot of his stuff. There are exceptions, of course, Relayer being the main one. 

Depends what you are "Investigating" Personally I look into a bass part to find out why it appeals to me and if it is really simple how it fits into the music, and why I didnt think of it. That is the genius. Not being able to play something, but playing it first in the context it is in. Almost anyone can copy. Regardless of complexity you simply learn by rote. Be original, come up with something different and creative

[Bilbo]

Agreed. But surely studying someone else's 'creativity' is not going to make you creative. I don't actually think we disagree. When I say simple, I generally mean genre specific - like a root five bass line in a country song or a root note shuffle on a Blues tune. If you are genre informed, a walking bass over a blues is easy whereas a walking bass, superficially the same thing, over Giant Steps changes or some other peculiar set of chords will require more study. The trouble with studying complex improvisations in Jazz is that  you would never play the thing you have studied if you played that song again whereas, if you learn a complex part like 'Rhythm Stick' you will always play it the same way. Anyone playing a Yes cover is going to find it relatively easy to get under the bass parts. That's what I mean when I say simple. I agree that writing a part is where the artistry is (although, it is known that Yes lifted a lot of stuff from all sorts of places)

[4000]

3 minutes ago, Bilbo said:

Agreed. But surely studying someone else's 'creativity' is not going to make you creative. I don't actually think we disagree. When I say simple, I generally mean genre specific - like a root five bass line in a country song or a root note shuffle on a Blues tune. If you are genre informed, a walking bass over a blues is easy whereas a walking bass, superficially the same thing, over Giant Steps changes or some other peculiar set of chords will require more study. The trouble with studying complex improvisations in Jazz is that  you would never play the thing you have studied if you played that song again whereas, if you learn a complex part like 'Rhythm Stick' you will always play it the same way. Anyone playing a Yes cover is going to find it relatively easy to get under the bass parts. That's what I mean when I say simple. I agree that writing a part is where the artistry is (although, it is known that Yes lifted a lot of stuff from all sorts of places)

Everybody lifts stuff from all sorts of places. 😉

[Bilbo]

Absolutely - amateurs copy, professionals steal.

[4000]

1 minute ago, Bilbo said:

Absolutely - amateurs copy, professionals steal.

Unless they’re Jimmy Plaige, sorry, Page, who appears to get away with it at least some of the time. 😉

[visog]

12 hours ago, Bilbo said:

As I said before, I LOVE his playing but 'the best'? Patently nonsense.

It's arguably true in context, i.e. in 1972 when CttE came out, artistically and criticaly it was a triumph. Squire extended the profile of the bass in longer form compositions picking up John Entwistle's mantle from 'Tommy'. Squire innovated in tone with bi-amping and effects; singing complex harmonies and adding sub-bass. The man was a walking church organ and choir. Notably he also had a wider rhythmic sensitivity - odd time signatures and harmonic vocabulary - full diatonic beyond Entwistle's more traditional pentatonic perspective.

Today, nearly 50 years later, I agree with your point. Squire vs. Hadrien Feraud - no contest! But then Hadrien humbles us all. But unfortunatley I've only paid Hadrien for his work on Chic's 'Vigil' record and his show at Ronnie Scott's. In contrast, I've willingly paid Squire for the entire Yes repetoire over several formats and many shows. Which ultimately is the biggest compliment you can pay an artist.

Edited May 27, 2020 by visog

[Bilbo]

I love the strength your advocacy, Visog. For the record, I had every Yes album to 90125 but they lost me there. I have repurchased a few in different formats. Feraud, on the other hand, has not earned a cent from me. Manring 1 cassette. Wooten and Caron 1 download each. John Entwistle got another duck😁

[mikel]

20 hours ago, visog said:

It's arguably true in context, i.e. in 1972 when CttE came out, artistically and criticaly it was a triumph. Squire extended the profile of the bass in longer form compositions picking up John Entwistle's mantle from 'Tommy'. Squire innovated in tone with bi-amping and effects; singing complex harmonies and adding sub-bass. The man was a walking church organ and choir. Notably he also had a wider rhythmic sensitivity - odd time signatures and harmonic vocabulary - full diatonic beyond Entwistle's more traditional pentatonic perspective.

Today, nearly 50 years later, I agree with your point. Squire vs. Hadrien Feraud - no contest! But then Hadrien humbles us all. But unfortunatley I've only paid Hadrien for his work on Chic's 'Vigil' record and his show at Ronnie Scott's. In contrast, I've willingly paid Squire for the entire Yes repetoire over several formats and many shows. Which ultimately is the biggest compliment you can pay an artist.

This. Job done.