true bypass

[musicman1]

[quote name='umph' post='431113' date='Mar 10 2009, 11:10 PM']hes charging 190 pounds in labour for something that would take 2 hours to build, which a bit of an over the top asking price which is what people where saying.[/quote]
i would pay to see any one build it in 2 hours

[EBS_freak]

There really is a really simple way of doing this and getting a pro job... but nobody is really touched on the idea here... yet.

[Silent Fly]

[quote name='EBS_freak' post='433156' date='Mar 13 2009, 01:46 AM']There really is a really simple way of doing this and getting a pro job... but nobody is really touched on the idea here... yet.[/quote]

Intriguing... can you tell us more?

[Dubs]

[quote name='Silent Fly' post='433065' date='Mar 12 2009, 11:59 PM']I respect your viewpoint and I envy you lack of doubts but I believe we have different opinions about how to calculate time and production costs.

What I say it’s not a judgment on musicman1 prices. As I said: <quote>[work and price] will be judged by the number of customers and their satisfaction.</quote> As far as I am concern, if we operate in a free marker, no price is, by definition, wrong or too high/low.


With the greatest respect benwhiteuk I think you misread my post. I believe I said the exact opposite: <quote>I won’t comment your work or its price. I would like to give only a few comments about the presentation.</quote>[/quote]

Fair doos. We’re looking at this from completely different view points. I never meant to start bashing the guy for his quality of work or asking price but I let myself be drawn into it. As a DIY project I think it’s great, but as a commercial product I think it’s severely lacking in a few areas; price point and general quality/finish being my main areas of concern. I couldn’t imagine any retailer putting this on the shelf next to other professional looper solutions with a £240 price tag on it. For the life of me I cannot see £240 within this device. I cannot see where £240 of my hard earned cash is going in relation to the concept/idea, the raw components, or the time it takes to produce this looper. £240 is about a 40 hour weeks wage for me. Even if it takes 10 hours to put together at £6 an hour and the parts cost £20 - £25; that only equates to about £80 or £85, so call it £100 for the sake of argument. If you’re a skilled workman/solderer you’ll probably get about £11 or £12 an hour but it’ll take less than half the time. £240 for this is completely pie in the sky stuff. After all, the guy’s asked for feedback on the price and I think I’ve done this and explained my reasoning.

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='Silent Fly' post='433219' date='Mar 13 2009, 08:10 AM']Intriguing... can you tell us more?[/quote]

OK. As somebody is intrigued...

When you look at the design of a looper, it is effectively a single signal path which is intersected by the same circuit a number of times (e.g. the number of loops). In other words, there is a lot of repetition. So, if you think about it, to keep costs down, improve productivity (e.g. minimise the build time of the circuit) and easy construction, wouldn't it be good if each instance of the same circuit could be made modular and quick and easy to build.

It makes sense to PCB it. Each PCB has one loop circuit on it and comprises of two board mounted sockets, a board mounted switch (latched probably) and your status LEDs. Also on the PCB, you have your signal positive and earth connections and your power for your LED. If these were to be done by say terminal connectors, building up a looper box is easy. Just gather the amount of assembled PCBs and attach the jumper cables to each PCB together. Easy... and quick.

The advantage of the PCB approach is that they are dead easy and quick to solder up... and it will look a lot more snazzy should anybody look under the hood. Compare and contrast a PCB to the wiring shown by the OP.

So... first query - PCBs are expensive right?

I just did a quick quote for a 4cmx4cm board at [url="http://www.pcb-value.com/"]http://www.pcb-value.com/[/url] - £119.31 (inc VAT) for 100. Doesn't seem unreasonable to me. Obviously, the more you get, the cheaper it gets.

OK... boxes... you talk about drilling... maybe you should talk to some metal punchers and see how cheap they will do stuff at the moment given the current economy. If you get your CNC punching program sorted, you have another modular approach... at a very cost effective price.

The final assembly would be easy - get your prepunched box, insert the circuit into position, screw the jack socket bolt and washers on so the circuit stays in position, position the LED, screw the bolt and washers on for the footswitch and clip your jumper cables in place for your next looper. You will be building loopers in minutes.

The only bit of "custom" soldering would be to your final input and ouput jacks (although these could be PCB and have jumper cable connectors installed - although I suspect the extra cost involved in the PCBs would not be worth it).

For the ultimate pro finish, you may want to look into proper screen printing or powder coated finish...

Just a thought, depends how serious you want to get. I think you could be quite surprised at how good a product you could get for a relatively little outlay.

I don't know about other guys on here, but I would be much more willing to spend money on something produced the way I have explained to a hand made effort.

[rmorris]

[quote name='EBS_freak' post='433481' date='Mar 13 2009, 12:14 PM']OK. As somebody is intrigued...

When you look at the design of a looper, it is effectively a single signal path which is intersected by the same circuit a number of times (e.g. the number of loops). In other words, there is a lot of repetition. So, if you think about it, to keep costs down, improve productivity (e.g. minimise the build time of the circuit) and easy construction, wouldn't it be good if each instance of the same circuit could be made modular and quick and easy to build.

It makes sense to PCB it. Each PCB has one loop circuit on it and comprises of two board mounted sockets, a board mounted switch (latched probably) and your status LEDs. Also on the PCB, you have your signal positive and earth connections and your power for your LED. If these were to be done by say terminal connectors, building up a looper box is easy. Just gather the amount of assembled PCBs and attach the jumper cables to each PCB together. Easy... and quick.

The advantage of the PCB approach is that they are dead easy and quick to solder up... and it will look a lot more snazzy should anybody look under the hood. Compare and contrast a PCB to the wiring shown by the OP.

So... first query - PCBs are expensive right?

I just did a quick quote for a 4cmx4cm board at [url="http://www.pcb-value.com/"]http://www.pcb-value.com/[/url] - £119.31 (inc VAT) for 100. Doesn't seem unreasonable to me. Obviously, the more you get, the cheaper it gets.[/quote]

yes you can get good quality double sided pth boards at reasonable prices and there are no fine pitch SMT footprints here to worry about.
PCB prices vary widely between suppliers - much depending on quantity and how they charge for tooling.
Of course you'll need to layout the pcb and generate the data for manufacture - gerbers or similar - or pay someone to do that.
Of course

[dannybuoy]

Using a PCB for a true bypass loop seems like too much hard work though... There are no components apart from the switch/jacks/LED, which are all mounted to chassis, so you just wire them up point-to-point.

[DanOwens]

Well, at least I'm learning!!!

Dan

[Higgie]

£240 is a laughable price for what seems to be an amatuer attempt at best. At £240 I'd be expecting this thing to whipe my arse for me too.

Edited March 13, 2009 by Higgie

[Silent Fly]

[quote name='Higgie' post='433956' date='Mar 13 2009, 05:43 PM'][...] I'd be expecting this thing to whipe my arse for me too.[/quote]

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='dannybuoy' post='433624' date='Mar 13 2009, 01:38 PM']Using a PCB for a true bypass loop seems like too much hard work though... There are no components apart from the switch/jacks/LED, which are all mounted to chassis, so you just wire them up point-to-point.[/quote]

Too much hard work? The PCB thing makes life easier... although you are looking at selling quantities to get the initial outlay back. If you are creating short runs... but if you want to bash these out quickly to a high standard, then... well, it's an option. Each to their own.

[rmorris]

[quote name='dannybuoy' post='433624' date='Mar 13 2009, 01:38 PM']Using a PCB for a true bypass loop seems like too much hard work though... There are no components apart from the switch/jacks/LED, which are all mounted to chassis, so you just wire them up point-to-point.[/quote]

well it's a matter of quantity and easae of configuration.
PCB is more work and money upfront but then much easier and cheaper to manufacture and configure and test as required.
The trick is to know where the breakpoint is where it becomes a better option.

[rmorris]

[quote name='musicman1' post='429593' date='Mar 9 2009, 05:57 PM']thanks for the advice but thinner wire is ok but is not that great for thickness of tone plus i have already taken orders for 5 of these. just showing 2 people at college. i can tidy up the wiring as this is prototype i didn't worry about this. 155 dollars is cheap but by the time you get it to the uk you are looking at 200 pounds. but it is all things i have to concider[/quote]

are the wires we can see single core or screened ?
If single core no need to worry about the conductor diameter and shorter lengths will cause less crosstalk ( although in reality that may not be an issue ) .
If screened a thinner cable would generally have a bit more capacitance but the ability to have shorter wires since they are more flexible will probably mean that the total capacitance is less I think.