Deals within europe

[graham1945]

Hi all,

Can anyone point me to any discussion relating to purchases of used gear from our european friends - duty, taxes, etc?

Ta, Graham

[police squad]

if you're buying from within the EU, there is no duty and taxes. you pay the price and that's it

 

If , however, it is outside the eu, then you'll have to pay duty and VAT

[graham1945]

Cheers PS, someone’s on the ball! Just a bit unsure if anything had changed whilst we are in “limbo” time.

[ubit]

Sorry to digress as it's not Europe but I bought  a Taylor guitar years ago from the States as it was fully £200 cheaper from there. I asked the seller to please mark the package as a gift, which he did. Customs still got in touch with me and said they would not release the package unless I paid a custom charge. I said but it's a gift. Doesn't matter they said. Guess how much I had to pay. Yup, £200!

[police squad]

47 minutes ago, graham1945 said:

Cheers PS, someone’s on the ball! Just a bit unsure if anything had changed whilst we are in “limbo” time.

until 31st december nothing changes in the eu.

After that, who knows what will happen

[police squad]

3 minutes ago, ubit said:

Sorry to digress as it's not Europe but I bought  a Taylor guitar years ago from the States as it was fully £200 cheaper from there. I asked the seller to please mark the package as a gift, which he did. Customs still got in touch with me and said they would not release the package unless I paid a custom charge. I said but it's a gift. Doesn't matter they said. Guess how much I had to pay. Yup, £200!

some people used to undervalue the goods, so the customs charges would be less, but then you cant insure for the full value

I bought some guitars from the states 15-16 years ago. It was way cheaper back then, 2 dollars to the pound etc.

You actually have to pay duty on the shipping charge (It is added to the goods value) and then VAT on the whole lot

[Nicko]

For purchases outside the EU duty and VAT are paid only if the purchase value exceeds £390. For items which exceed this, up to £690 is charged at 2.5% duty, - if you bring it in with you. and I think if its second hand VAT is not applicable 

So for example if you were buying a used US Jazz worth say £800 in the UK for the equivalent of £500 the duty would be 2.5% of £500, no VAT and the total cost would be £512.50 and you'd be getting a good deal.

On purchases over £630 the rate of duty varies.  The other issue of course is is you are bringing it in yourself and its clearly second hand how would the bloke at customs know?

 

[BigRedX]

2 minutes ago, Nicko said:

For purchases outside the EU duty and VAT are paid only if the purchase value exceeds £390. For items which exceed this, up to £690 is charged at 2.5% duty, - if you bring it in with you. and I think if its second hand VAT is not applicable 

So for example if you were buying a used US Jazz worth say £800 in the UK for the equivalent of £500 the duty would be 2.5% of £500, no VAT and the total cost would be £512.50 and you'd be getting a good deal.

On purchases over £630 the rate of duty varies.  The other issue of course is is you are bringing it in yourself and its clearly second hand how would the bloke at customs know?

Have you got a source for the exception of VAT on secondhand goods brought in personally?

I know that the allowances for good brought in personally is higher than for those sent by post/courier service.

You get charged VAT on all posted items from outside the EU over £15. Marking the item as a gift will only increase this limit to £39. Import duty only applies to goods over £135.

The simplest rule of thumb for allowing for VAT and import duty is to add 25% to the cost of the item plus the postage and then another £10 on top of that for the clearance fee. That way you won't get any nasty surprises. IME it is rarely worth buying anything that costs under £100, unless there is definitely no alternative, as the import charges will nearly always make it more expensive, then buying from within the EU.

After the end of this year expect this rule to apply to anything bought from outside of the UK.

[Nicko]

47 minutes ago, BigRedX said:

Have you got a source for the exception of VAT on secondhand goods brought in personally?

I know that the allowances for good brought in personally is higher than for those sent by post/courier service.

You get charged VAT on all posted items from outside the EU over £15. Marking the item as a gift will only increase this limit to £39. Import duty only applies to goods over £135.

The simplest rule of thumb for allowing for VAT and import duty is to add 25% to the cost of the item plus the postage and then another £10 on top of that for the clearance fee. That way you won't get any nasty surprises. IME it is rarely worth buying anything that costs under £100, unless there is definitely no alternative, as the import charges will nearly always make it more expensive, then buying from within the EU.

After the end of this year expect this rule to apply to anything bought from outside of the UK.

You may be right.  I'm sure I saw this referenced somewhere on the HMRC site when I looked some time ago but I could equally be making it up.

[fretmeister]

5 hours ago, ubit said:

Sorry to digress as it's not Europe but I bought  a Taylor guitar years ago from the States as it was fully £200 cheaper from there. I asked the seller to please mark the package as a gift, which he did. Customs still got in touch with me and said they would not release the package unless I paid a custom charge. I said but it's a gift. Doesn't matter they said. Guess how much I had to pay. Yup, £200!

That's also because mis-describing an item on a customs form as a gift (and indeed just telling customs when it isn't) is an offence.

Customs are perfectly within their rights to destroy it and to fine anyone who does this. Most of the time they'd rather just collect the money.

[ubit]

41 minutes ago, fretmeister said:

That's also because mis-describing an item on a customs form as a gift (and indeed just telling customs when it isn't) is an offence.

And who is going to prove this?

[CameronJ]

Regarding the matter of goods brought in personally, how does anyone other than yourself know whether items in your luggage have been purchased abroad or not? Who actually enforces this at the airport? Genuinely curious as I’ve never seen this happen.

[jimmyb625]

1 hour ago, CameronJ said:

Regarding the matter of goods brought in personally, how does anyone other than yourself know whether items in your luggage have been purchased abroad or not? Who actually enforces this at the airport? Genuinely curious as I’ve never seen this happen.

Jewellery certainly used to be siezed for examination and valuation, I would think it still is. 

Depending on what is brought in and by whom, customs will sieze and either destroy, or charge import duty.

[chris_b]

1 hour ago, ubit said:

And who is going to prove this?

The Customs will make a judgement, then it's up to you to prove them wrong.

[Bassfinger]

7 hours ago, Nicko said:

For purchases outside the EU duty and VAT are paid only if the purchase value exceeds £390. For items which exceed this, up to £690 is charged at 2.5% duty, - if you bring it in with you. and I think if its second hand VAT is not applicable 

So for example if you were buying a used US Jazz worth say £800 in the UK for the equivalent of £500 the duty would be 2.5% of £500, no VAT and the total cost would be £512.50 and you'd be getting a good deal.

On purchases over £630 the rate of duty varies.  The other issue of course is is you are bringing it in yourself and its clearly second hand how would the bloke at customs know?

 

I work abroad a lot and bring stuff back.  No officer, I took it out with me.  They can never prove otherwise.

Remove any labels that might give the game away, post any invoices or documents back home to yourself separately so you've nothing incriminating on your person. Never brought in anything as big as a guitar but done good few cameras, a laptop, even parts for our Smart car.

That's not to say you won't get rumbled, but I've always kept it plausible and made sure I've no evidence on my to prove otherwise and never had more that the most cursory of questioning.

[CameronJ]

52 minutes ago, jimmyb625 said:

Jewellery certainly used to be siezed for examination and valuation, I would think it still is. 

Depending on what is brought in and by whom, customs will sieze and either destroy, or charge import duty.

Even if you’re wearing it?

[inthedoghouse]

It's sometimes been a bit of a lottery for me and paying import duties when I've bought guitars/gear from the USA when the exchange rate was better.  Sometimes I got charged, sometimes I didn't.  A lot of US sellers won't undervalue the item for the sake of saving us some money because, as someone else has already said, it's an offence for them to do so.

I had an American friend who would buy on my behalf and then send items to me, listing the value as less - sometimes I had to pay, sometimes not.  So I suppose it's best to err on the safe side an allow for being charged when looking to buy from outside the EU.

My American friend got very lucky when he wired me about £3.5k years ago for a vintage guitar so I could buy and send it over to him - didn't have to pay a cent.

On another occasion we were due to visit friends in the US so I bought a nice USA Tele from over there while we were still at home and had it sent to the friends' address.  I brought it home as baggage, no problem.

Edited May 26, 2020 by inthedoghouse

[ubit]

6 hours ago, chris_b said:

The Customs will make a judgement, then it's up to you to prove them wrong.

They never asked me to prove anything. It was you have to pay £200 to get the package end of story

[jimmyb625]

This is from a while back and relates to the US, not Europe, but it's an interesting read:

http://www.promenademusic.co.uk/importing-guitars-from-america

 

As far as bringing something in and claiming you already owned it and took it out with you, it's a strategy that could work, but there is a risk. As Chrisb states above, it becomes your problem to provide proof of ownership. 

However, as this is about deals in Europe, for the short term at least, there's no problem.

 

[jimmyb625]

5 hours ago, CameronJ said:

Even if you’re wearing it?

Yes, if they have a reason to suspect you're trying to import without paying duty etc. Years ago, my Dad used to carry out jewellery valuations on things that had been brought in. In one consignment, the cheapest item was a £10k Rolex!

[Bassfinger]

13 hours ago, CameronJ said:

Even if you’re wearing it?

Yes, theyll even check the labels on expensive looking clothing, so cut them out.

The HMRC boys will make their decision and once they've made it it's down to you to either prove otherwise or stump up the duty.  However, they know they're open to challenge and will always base such a decision upon evidence.  Deprive them of that evidence and the presumption under UK law is in your favour.  Cut out labels, peel off stickers, send paperwork or invoices home separately in the mail.

I've never been quizzed about my watch (a Tudor) but a fair point mentioned above.  Next time I go abroad I'll keep a photo of the UK purchase invoice on my tablet just in case they think I'm trying to pull a fast one, although one would hope in the grand scheme it's not such an expensive trinket compared to some.

[itu]

Just few pages to check:

https://www.zikinf.com/

http://www.bassic.de/kleinanzeigen/

This is a shop:

https://www.todobajos.com/en/

For DIY people:

https://schalltechnik04.de/en/home

[Nicko]

I worked abroad for a time and used to come home regularly (8 weeks there, two here).  On one trip home I bought a bass as I was playing in a band there with a borrowed bass.  When I went back to work I declared an export on the bass and claimed the VAT back. I used to leave it there when I was on leave. For various reasons  but mainly through my own choice, the work assignment finished about 8 months later which was earlier than I'd expected and I had to bring the bass back with me.  I carried it through and no one asked any questions, - why would they?  So I didn't bother declaring it.  

They didn't ask about my watch either which was bought in country - no duty payable and considerably cheaper than buying in the UK (IIRC the UK price was around £1700).  I didn't consider it an import, it was simply a watch that I owned that I'd bought when living abroad.  Had I wanted to make money I could have bought one every trip and left it here when I went back.  

I also used to bring back my complete tobacco allowance every trip, even though I couldn't have claimed it was for use in the 2 weeks I was here.  It lasted years when I got back.

[fretmeister]

20 hours ago, ubit said:

They never asked me to prove anything. It was you have to pay £200 to get the package end of story

And you can challenge it by stating it is a gift again and providing evidence.

At this point they may decide to talk to the person you bought it from as well if they don't believe you. Then you get into more trouble for trying to get someone else to tell a porky for you.

They may also report the seller to their local customs people as well - and in the USA it is a Federal Offence to mis-describe a package. They will fold very quickly and give them the truth rather than protect you. The fines in the USA are massive.

 

On 26/05/2020 at 16:39, ubit said:

And who is going to prove this?

I feel that's the wrong approach. One should never think offences are ok just because the person didn't get caught or that proof might be difficult.

Not paying it by putting "gift" on the package when it is not a gift is tax evasion. It is that simple.