Fretless question

[Happy Jack]

27 minutes ago, Bobthedog said:

I have just watched a couple of videos on this and there are two different views. Scott said the finger must be on the line and the other said behind. I guess I am going to just play and see what happens.

The important thing is to place your finger where it produces the note that you wanted.

All else is nonsense.

 

[paul_c2]

27 minutes ago, Happy Jack said:

The important thing is to place your finger where it produces the note that you wanted.

All else is nonsense.

 

Exactly. Any debate about "put your finger on the line/put your finger just before the line" is pretty meaningless.

[ezbass]

1 hour ago, Bobthedog said:

I have just watched a couple of videos on this and there are two different views. Scott said the finger must be on the line and the other said behind. I guess I am going to just play and see what happens.

Put your fingers where you think it sounds right and check against a tuner. The lines on mine are spot on when using the edge of a pick, so I adjust for my finger width/pressure where appropriate. Some strings seem to be more forgiving too.

[x20xt6]

A 24 fret bass has 40 different notes on it.
A fretless bass has 351 different notes on it.

If you want to pretend your fretless is limited to 40 notes, put lines on it. Bit of a waste though.

#nofretsnolimits

😂😂

[Bobthedog]

1 hour ago, Happy Jack said:

The important thing is to place your finger where it produces the note that you wanted.

All else is nonsense.

 

That is really what I was saying

[Frank Blank]

3 hours ago, fleabag said:

One thing i noticed when first playing a fretless , was that if you put your finger on the fret line,  it produced a sharp note.  This is because your fretting finger is much fatter than the fret line, and therefore, some of your finger is in front and some behind the line.  You need to place the edge of your finger  upto the line rather than on it. ( see pic )

In addition to that, the further up the neck you fret, you will find that you need to make tiny adjustments to finger position,  especially at the dusty end

This is very true. I play a lined Rob Allen Mouse and most of the bass lines I write and play are up the dusty end around the twelfth fret. I tried several fretless basses over the years and never gelled with them, the RA Mouse however was perfect. I think the whole ‘lined/unlined position of dots’ is set by how these things are on the  fretless you start on. There are very strong opinions on all aspects of fretless basses and the playing thereof but I suggest reading them and playing them in a way that suits you. I agree with everything @lownote12 says about fretless and I always read his comments, particularly on fretless, with immense interest, however I do the opposite to almost everything he suggests just because I started off playing one (foolishly) without any advice. I play some of the songs in our set with slides, some without, depending on what I feel appropriate to the song, but then I’m a huge Mick Karn fan so I’m going to slide a bit too much. All I’m saying is don’t think there is an absolute right or wrong way, play it how you want to. I play fretless how I want to, in a way that suits me, but I also keep an eye on the stuff far more experienced fretless players, like @lownote12, suggest and I found tons of it really, really helpful but some people (absolutely not @lownote12 I hasten to add) will tell you that there is only one way to play and anything outside those parameters is wrong, that’s nonsense. Take good advice, sure, but play fretless how you see fit.

[lownote]

28 minutes ago, Frank Blank said:

I agree with everything @lownote12 says about fretless and I always read his comments, particularly on fretless, with immense interest, however I do the opposite to almost everything he suggests.

😂😂

[ezbass]

33 minutes ago, Frank Blank said:

Take good advice, sure, but play fretless how you see fit.

Wise words, which are applicable to pretty much any art form, but especially the electric bass, which has only been around for about 70 years really (counting from Leo’s first P), the fretless version of which is even less so (albeit not too much).

[Hellzero]

I really started playing bass on a fretless some 35 years ago and I'm mainly a fretless player. I've been playing 4 to 8 strings fretlesses lined or unlined and it doesn't really matter to me, even if I prefer unlined as you'll always play with your ears and not with your eyes.

Remember that you MUST set up the intonation on a fretless bass too. And that's were all the bullsh*t about the finger placement comes from. In fact, if your fretless bass intonation has been dead precisely set up, using the tip of your fingernail to be exactly at the first, or even better, the second octave, then you'll have to put your finger the way @fleabag explained.

If it's been set up without taking into account this precisely way of doing it, then you'll end up putting your fingers where it's in ... tune.

The explanations of @lownote12 are great, but just missing two points concerning the mwah as it comes also from the straightness and hardness of the fingerboard.

It's funny, because yesterday evening, I was giving a little try (had a bike crash last Sunday and my left shoulder is in very poor condition since then and it will take at least 3 months to fully recover) to my basses and said to my wife : "Why the f*ck am I wasting my time with fretted basses, when I'm definitely a fretless player ?"

Always told you was the answer. 🤣

Use a Peterson tuner when playing and check your intonation while playing to be sure you're perfectly in tune, then your ears will learn.

Also use open strings when playing as you can retune your notes instantly (beware of natural harmonics...)

Adding a chorus is also a fretless trick.

Your vibrato must be horizontal, by moving slightly your finger, and not by bending the string : it's one way to see if you're in front of a "real" fretless player.

And as I like to say : no frets, no limits !

Have fun and use your ears !

[Bobthedog]

42 minutes ago, Hellzero said:

Use a Peterson tuner when playing and check your intonation while playing to be sure you're perfectly in tune, then your ears will learn.

Also use open strings when playing as you can retune your notes instantly (beware of natural harmonics...)

Adding a chorus is also a fretless trick.

Your vibrato must be horizontal, by moving slightly your finger, and not by bending the string : it's one way to see if you're in front of a "real" fretless player.

And as I like to say : no frets, no limits !

Have fun and use your ears !

Some good stuff there, particularly about the tuner, at least at first it will help. Thank  you. I still have to learn to trust my ears, although apparently they are okay.

[Frank Blank]

27 minutes ago, Bobthedog said:

Some good stuff there, particularly about the tuner, at least at first it will help. Thank  you. I still have to learn to trust my ears, although apparently they are okay.

Totally agree about the Peterson tuner, mine is permanently on my fretless but you gradually refer to it less and less as your ears improve.

[itu]

"You can slide, and you can find", was a comment from my teacher, while we discussed about the notes in tune...

[bnt]

My experience with fretless came about almost by accident. I bought a Hohner B2A (Steinberger licensed copy) for cheap, from a lady whose son didn't get on with it. When I got it home and had a closer look, I could tell that it had a bad fret job, with some notes audibly out of tune, and then I noticed that the label said "Hohner B2Afl". It started life as a fretless, complete with phenolic fretboard, and some numpty had fretted it. Within a few months I had re-de-fretted it, filled the slots with epoxy, removed the black paint and gave it a beeswax finish, and added a cutaway for better upper fret access. I don't have it any more, though, and I miss fretless, to the point where I'm looking to defret an old bass and give it a super glue fretboard coating.

I didn't find playing it difficult at all, but then I wasn't trying to be Jaco. My main fretless influence by far was Paul Webb of Talk Talk: I really liked how his playing didn't scream "look at me, I'm fretless!", but it was there if you listened closely to tracks like Tomorrow Started.

 

Edited May 31, 2020 by bnt

[lownote]

10 hours ago, itu said:

"You can slide, and you can find", was a comment from my teacher, while we discussed about the notes in tune...

I recently watched Steve Lawson's masterclass on fretless in SBL and both he and Scott counselled against this, as 'slide and find' quickly becomes an ingrained sloppy habit (their words, not mine) .  Their advice is to teach your fingers where the note is and hit it first time.  

[Hellzero]

Another important point is to listen to the other fretless players like the real pioneer that Percy JONES was and still is, or the terrific Mick KARN who was the greatest slider ever as it was part of his sound, or Jack BRUCE with his classical background and veena playing knowledge (amongst others), or any other non Jaco related players. These players are my main influences and the ones that decided me to play fretless instead of fretted bass.

Even Jaco was impressed by Percy JONES... because he was there before him pushing the limits of the fretless bass to such a high level.

Of course, don't forget Michael MANRING and Pino PALLADINO (with Paul YOUNG), both great Jaco fans.

Again open your ears !

[ezbass]

As @Hellzero says, listen to other players and their approaches to to fretless. 18 months or so ago, I started posting fretless tracks on FB under the #fretlessfriday. You are no doubt aware of these players, but it doesn’t hurt to list them in case they’ve slipped off of your fretless radar. Some of the players in my play list were: Tony Franklin, Bakithi Kumalo, Tony Levin, Larry Klein (sounds like he playing fretless even when he picks up a fretted bass), Alan Spenner, John Giblin, Boz Burrell (so subtle that you hardly know it’s fretless) and I also had the usual suspects in my list, already mentioned in folks’ posts above. I may have to go back and listen to them all again in the coming days myself.

[itu]

2 hours ago, lownote12 said:

...and both he and Scott counselled against this, as 'slide and find' quickly becomes an ingrained sloppy habit...

Exactly! And I should have pointed out, that we laughed ourselves silly after his comment.

[Frank Blank]

3 hours ago, lownote12 said:

I recently watched Steve Lawson's masterclass on fretless in SBL and both he and Scott counselled against this, as 'slide and find' quickly becomes an ingrained sloppy habit (their words, not mine) .  Their advice is to teach your fingers where the note is and hit it first time.  

Agreed. I did this at first but found myself needing it less and less as I became more accurate, luckily it didn't turn into a habit.

[Frank Blank]

2 hours ago, Hellzero said:

... or the terrific Mick KARN who was the greatest slider ever as it was part of his sound ...

Yeah, let's have some ...

 

[Hellzero]

Bestial Cluster is my favourite Mick KARN album. I've listened to it hundreds of times if not thousands...

[Hellzero]

14 hours ago, bnt said:

My experience with fretless came about almost by accident. I bought a Hohner B2A (Steinberger licensed copy) for cheap, from a lady whose son didn't get on with it. When I got it home and had a closer look, I could tell that it had a bad fret job, with some notes audibly out of tune, and then I noticed that the label said "Hohner B2Afl". It started life as a fretless, complete with phenolic fretboard, and some numpty had fretted it. Within a few months I had re-de-fretted it, filled the slots with epoxy, removed the black paint and gave it a beeswax finish, and added a cutaway for better upper fret access. I don't have it any more, though, and I miss fretless, to the point where I'm looking to defret an old bass and give it a super glue fretboard coating.

I didn't find playing it difficult at all, but then I wasn't trying to be Jaco. My main fretless influence by far was Paul Webb of Talk Talk: I really liked how his playing didn't scream "look at me, I'm fretless!", but it was there if you listened closely to tracks like Tomorrow Started.

 

Great fretless sound, the way I love it. Reminds me that I still have a fretless Kramer 450B... a Mick KARN form of heritage (he had a Travis Bean).

[NickA]

I find frets difficult tbh.  Your finger positioning has to be as accurate as on a fretless to get an even tone. If you're a bit out on a fretless you're a bit out of tune and can correct, with frets you get a nasty clank or buzz or a completely wrong note.  Fretted basses good for chords, slapping, tapping and endless sustain, fretless for the rest.

I think, if you're a good fretted player then fretless will beveasy.  If you have lousy technique and/or are used to looking at your fingers to hit the right note ( instead of at the music or at your fellow musicians); then fretless might be tough.