When will you start gigging again?

[Woodinblack]

1 minute ago, dmccombe7 said:

A wise move postponing to next year. Saw somewhere where a young couple had postponed there's till now, got married and the honeymoon was cancelled on them at last minute. Felt so sorry for them. If you're gonna get married you want the full package so you have a wonderful memory of the day. 

Dave 

Ha, I couldn't have a honeymoon because my company were haphazard at paying. I had it the next year instead (and they messed that up). I do however have wonderful memories of the day!

[FinnDave]

2 minutes ago, dmccombe7 said:

Have fun, enjoy and post some pics for us Dave.

Dave

I will if I can, but only pics of the other bands as I'll be a bit busy when we're doing our thing!

[martthebass]

46 minutes ago, dmccombe7 said:

A wise move postponing to next year. Saw somewhere where a young couple had postponed there's till now, got married and the honeymoon was cancelled on them at last minute. Felt so sorry for them. If you're gonna get married you want the full package so you have a wonderful memory of the day. 

Dave 

My daughter’s wedding was moved from early June to August 21st.....had to move it again now to April next year. She was gutted so in the end she’s getting married this month with limited numbers and have a big ‘fake’ ceremony next year.

Honeymoon, in September was cancelled on them a week after they’d made the full payment.......

On the gigging front, we were inundated with requests a couple of weeks back especially for this weekend. We gave our concerns as the guidance is as clear as mud. Going forward, most offers are now retracted as most venues have been informed they couldn’t go ahead with live music. 

We’re expecting next year before gigs are reprogrammed.

Edited August 1, 2020 by martthebass

[Dad3353]

1 hour ago, FinnDave said:

I will if I can, but only pics of the other bands as I'll be a bit busy when we're doing our thing!

Lend your camera/phone-thingy/whatever to a trusted 'someone' in the audience, or another band member..? Or ask 'em to take pics/films/whatever on their stuff and send 'em to you..? These days, apparently, one doesn't even have to wait for the film to be sent away and developed/printed/whatever..! Modern times, eh..? The World is waiting... 

[FinnDave]

Oh come, I do realise I don't have to send the film away for developing and printing. I just take the film into my local Boots and they care of all that. 

I think there is some recent video of me playing with this band around, try looking for Franklin's Tower on Facebook. If the bass player doesn't look like me, then it's their regular guy, if the bass player does look like me, then it probably is!

[Dad3353]

Hmm... Facebook, Facebook... The name rings a faint, distant bell, I think. Facebook..? I'll have Jeeves search the West Wing Library next time my Earl Grey gets served; we must have a copy somewhere... Hmm; maybe I lent it out and it's not been returned..? 

[odysseus]

1 minute ago, Dad3353 said:

Hmm... Facebook, Facebook... The name rings a faint, distant bell, I think. Facebook..? I'll have Jeeves search the West Wing Library next time my Earl Grey gets served; we must have a copy somewhere... Hmm; maybe I lent it out and it's not been returned..? 

If you find it.... burn it!! 

[Rich]

2 hours ago, dmccombe7 said:

A wise move postponing to next year. Saw somewhere where a young couple had postponed there's till now, got married and the honeymoon was cancelled on them at last minute. Felt so sorry for them. If you're gonna get married you want the full package so you have a wonderful memory of the day. 

Dave 

Martyn and Amy hadn't booked a honeymoon yet, their plan all along had been to wait till the last minute and grab a Travelzoo bargain hol to wherever took their fancy. Given the wedding postponement, I think this plan has paid off..! I do feel sorry for people who have had plans really spoiled.

[Stub Mandrel]

I get very confused by the 'main source of income' makes you a professional.

I'm a Chartered Environmentalist, but in some years less than 50% of my income comes from what I would class as environmental work.

Does that mean in those years I'm not doing it professionally?

Equally a  few percent of my income comes from writing books, is that amateur writing?

[dmccombe7]

1 hour ago, Stub Mandrel said:

I get very confused by the 'main source of income' makes you a professional.

I'm a Chartered Environmentalist, but in some years less than 50% of my income comes from what I would class as environmental work.

Does that mean in those years I'm not doing it professionally?

Equally a  few percent of my income comes from writing books, is that amateur writing?

Do you regard yourself as a Chartered Environmentalist, are you a qualified Chart Mentalist ?

There's no reason why you can't be classed as having more than one career. 

I guess there's no right or wrong answer. I'm an engineer its what i trained for when i left school and altho i love playing bass i've always classed myself as a hobby / amatuer bassist. I've made a few quid at it but i would give up bass if it was affecting my job. I did give it up for about 15yrs because my job was affecting my playing commitments.

I've never heard that question reversed like that to be honest but might be worth starting another thread on that question. 

Its certainly got me stumped for a decent answer.

Dave

[paul_c2]

2 hours ago, Stub Mandrel said:

I get very confused by the 'main source of income' makes you a professional.

I'm a Chartered Environmentalist, but in some years less than 50% of my income comes from what I would class as environmental work.

Does that mean in those years I'm not doing it professionally?

Equally a  few percent of my income comes from writing books, is that amateur writing?

I don't think its that complicated. But it doesn't need to be the "main" source of income, it could be a secondary one.

Any income received from doing something --> professional (by definition).

Its distinct from amateurs, who wouldn't receive any money for it. I guess you could argue there's a distinction between expenses and pay; or whether you actually make a profit from it once all costs including instruments, equipment, travel etc are taken into account. Also you could fairly describe something as semi-professional to indicate you receive some income from it but its not your main/sole income.

[FinnDave]

6 hours ago, Dad3353 said:

Lend your camera/phone-thingy/whatever to a trusted 'someone' in the audience, or another band member..? Or ask 'em to take pics/films/whatever on their stuff and send 'em to you..? These days, apparently, one doesn't even have to wait for the film to be sent away and developed/printed/whatever..! Modern times, eh..? The World is waiting... 

The photo bit got completely forgotten in the heat of the moment. All went well, quite a few people spread out responsibly watching the bands. Played for and hour and then asked to play another song or two, pleasant way to spend and afternoon in good company.

[Woodinblack]

So I notice an event near me on my local facebook group, an open mic night. How does that work then? Clearly they are not professional, it is not outside and it is not ticketed. 

[Dad3353]

3 hours ago, Stub Mandrel said:

I get very confused by the 'main source of income' makes you a professional...

I think that 'professional', in this context, means folks employed to play their instruments, in the same way as folks working in an office. For such persons, not being able to work is similar to office workers being laid off. The idea of having these folks ply their trade is the same as that of bringing income back to other, salaried, folks. For those playing as a hobby, or as 'week-end warriors', this 'getting back to work' argument doesn't really apply.
It's not a health hazard thing, nor a question of having 'professional' standards of behavior or training, just an economics notion to give some folks their job back. That's how I see it, anyway. The risk is still there, but 'professional'players are to be allowed to take that risk, in the same way as 'essential staff' were a few weeks ago. For the rest of us, it's still a no-no.

[paul_c2]

33 minutes ago, Woodinblack said:

So I notice an event near me on my local facebook group, an open mic night. How does that work then? Clearly they are not professional, it is not outside and it is not ticketed. 

The venue would be risking their licence.

[Woodinblack]

4 minutes ago, paul_c2 said:

The venue would be risking their licence.

Thats what I assumed.

[TRBboy]

2 hours ago, paul_c2 said:

I don't think its that complicated. But it doesn't need to be the "main" source of income, it could be a secondary one.

Any income received from doing something --> professional (by definition).

Its distinct from amateurs, who wouldn't receive any money for it. I guess you could argue there's a distinction between expenses and pay; or whether you actually make a profit from it once all costs including instruments, equipment, travel etc are taken into account. Also you could fairly describe something as semi-professional to indicate you receive some income from it but its not your main/sole income.

I think also this business of being a 'professional' musician will be somewhat of a quandary for pub bands that have a day job, but maybe get paid to play every weekend; most people in this situation will take cash in hand, and will have never declared any of it.... Therefore, on paper, you've never earned any money from being a musician, ergo you're not a professional.... Unless you want to drop yourself in it with the tax man... 😬

Edited August 1, 2020 by TRBboy

[Stub Mandrel]

26 minutes ago, TRBboy said:

I think also this business of being a 'professional' musician will be somewhat of a quandary for pub bands that have a day job, but maybe get paid to play every weekend; most people in this situation will take cash in hand, and will have never declared any of it.... Therefore, on paper, you've never earned any money from being a musician, ergo you're not a professional.... Unless you want to drop yourself in it with the tax man... 😬

My earning music from music days were beyond the 20 year limit.

Which is a shame as now I understand the tax system I would have been able to claim a tax rebate as what I spent on gear, practice venues and recording was more than I ever got back.

These days many people will come under the £1000 turnover de-minimis rule. A three-piece getting paid £250 a gig could do one a month, for example.

And if you do earn more, it's a good reason to make sure you have the finest basses and amps in the land "That 62 Jazz isn't a luxury, think how much tax I've saved!" 🙂

Edited August 1, 2020 by Stub Mandrel

[TwoTimesBass]

33 minutes ago, TRBboy said:

I think also this business of being a 'professional' musician will be somewhat of a quandary for pub bands that have a day job, but maybe get paid to play every weekend; most people in this situation will take cash in hand, and will have never declared any of it.... Therefore, on paper, you've never earned any money from being a musician, ergo you're not a professional.... Unless you want to drop yourself in it with the tax man... 😬

For me this (and I make no judgement on how anyone conducts their business) is a strong definition of professional, do you declare you earnings and pay tax on them? It makes it easy to defend your position to anyone who questions whether you should be doing a gig at the moment.  I do PAYE in one role, invoice and self assessment for freelance work, but have only ever done cash for gigs, so not a professional?

But is the onus not on the promoter/venue to justify the booking, it's them that will be fined or lose their license? Contract clauses aside, I can't see a band being charged for not 'being completely professional' tempting as it would be to call the cops on some 😫

[paul_c2]

I suspect the guys just putting the cash into their pocket are fine, because once you include expenses deductible, it would need to be quite a high pay rate to put you into +ve earnings, thus owing tax. Of course the corollary is....its actually quite difficult to make a decent living from just pub gigs. Add regular teaching, and/or session work, etc and it becomes more realistic.

[TwoTimesBass]

34 minutes ago, Stub Mandrel said:

And if you do earn more, it's a good reason to make sure you have the finest basses and amps in the land "That 62 Jazz isn't a luxury, think how much tax I've saved!" 🙂

Indeed! Nobody said you had to declare a profit at the end of the year... 😀

Edited August 1, 2020 by TwoTimesBass

[Dad3353]

6 minutes ago, TwoTimesBass said:

For me...

Again, for the purposes of these current restrictions, I think this is missing the point, a little. Let's start from the health premise that no-one, no-one at all should be mingling at present. From a contagion point of view, it's maybe ideal. OK, it can't be done, as some folks are required, by the nature of their work, to have contacts (health workers, care home folks, police etc...). There are also those in essential roles, keeping the power stations running, or driving trains for the health service folks needing public transport. OK, we make exceptions for those, with suitable protection and precautions. Now, there are loads of folks unable to earn their living. As soon as is practicable, folks that need to earn their living are now allowed to do so, in the right conditions. This includes retail shop workers, building site folks and musicians, as long as suitable distancing can be respected etc. If someone is, in this sense, a professional musician (not, then, a week-end warrior or pub band with a day job, but an opera singer, or recording artist, or pit cellist...), they may resume their employment. If there are folks here that play pubs etc as their sole livelihood, then they're included, whatever their tax situation. If not, they're not, so shouldn't be mingling with others.
That's how I see it, in light of present circumstances. It doesn't matter if one is proficient, nor taxable; just if it's the only way to keep food on the table, just like a salaried retail shop assistant. That's all. 

[paul_c2]

Very well said, life ISN'T back to normal and (very unnaturally, for humans) social behaviour is to be discouraged strongly. This means things which should be happening, can't. Not so long ago, people couldn't even visit their dying relatives or attend funerals.

Indoor gigs and social events are high-risk.

The guidelines for professional musicians to be able to return to some semblance of work is very much a concession because the government recognises it can't pay people to do nothing, for ever.

Edited August 1, 2020 by paul_c2

[TwoTimesBass]

8 minutes ago, Dad3353 said:

As soon as is practicable, folks that need to earn their living are now allowed to do so, in the right conditions. This includes retail shop workers, building site folks and musicians, as long as suitable distancing can be respected etc. If someone is, in this sense, a professional musician (not, then, a week-end warrior or pub band with a day job, but an opera singer, or recording artist, or pit cellist...), they may resume their employment. If there are folks here that play pubs etc as their sole livelihood, then they're included, whatever their tax situation.

Yes agreed Dad3353, I'm not sure at what point in my freelance career I became professional, but I know that I am in that role. That said it's never black and white, and for a lot of folks a well paid gig ever weekend isn't just pocket money, it makes a real difference.

[TwoTimesBass]

4 minutes ago, paul_c2 said:

Very well said, life ISN'T back to normal and (very unnaturally, for humans) social behaviour is to be discouraged strongly. This means things which should be happening, can't. Not so long ago, people couldn't even visit their dying relatives or attend funerals.

Indoor gigs and social events are high-risk.

The guidelines for professional musicians to be able to return to some semblance of work is very much a concession because the government recognises it can't pay people to do nothing, for ever.

It's a very good point, and actually pushes the choice toward those who are looking at presenting gigs. Either the gig is conducted in a safe and secure way (as some folks have demonstrated on this thread) or it's someone taking a chance with all the consequences that brings. It's more about the professionalism of those running the venue (risk assessment/control measures etc) than the talent on stage assuming the band are all doing their bit and willing to comply.