Practicing extended chords/arpeggios

[velvetkevorkian]

Hello all,
I'm starting to get into playing jazz properly and I'm trying to get used to playing different arpeggios over a set of changes. Previously I've never really looked at arpeggios that go past the octave (7ths were the limit really). The issue I'm having is I'm not sure of the best way to practice (or indeed use) multiple octaves or different inversions of 9th (11th, 13th) chords.

To clarify- when practising, say, a major triad, you can play root, 3rd, 5th, octave, compound third/10th, compound 5th/12th and the second octave and it sounds quite musical, and the same applies to the different inversions of the triad. If you try and do that with a 9th chord, you end up with a big hole between the 9th and the next octave.

How do you get around this? The only thing I've come up with so far is to play root, 3rd, 5th, 7th, 9th, 10th/compound 3rd, 12th/compound 5th, 15th/compound 7th etc which seems a bit inelegant. I can't see a better way though.

Any thoughts?
Cheers
Kyle

[foal30]

Kyle,

sometimes I do 9 chord arpeggios starting from the 3.
this helps me break up the ongoing issue of it's a C7 my first note is therefore C

so 3 5 b7 9 then
5 b7 9 10 then
b7 9 10 12 etc

maybe.
It depends on the day really.
I quite like large interval leaps so I might ignore this concept completely.

[mcgraham]

I have a couple of exercises.

1) Play arpeggios starting on each interval of a given scale (e.g. G major = starting on G .. A .. B etc). Keep going up in thirds (e.g. on G = G B D F# A C, i.e. covering all strings on a 4 string) then back down, then shift. Or you can shift up to the top note of the next all thirds arpeggios (D for Am11 arpeggio), then go back down that one (D B G E C A), then shift then go up etc.

2) Loop a simple chord or chord progression (diads are fine to outline them, the sparser the better sometimes), and force yourself to emphasise the (ex)tensions of the chord, e.g. over a G major, emphasise the A, C, E (F# if you consider that a bit different). Force yourself to use them, approach them, slide up to them, arpeggiate them, end normal triadic arpeggios with them, start with them, insert them... Really try to learn what sound and feel they evoke.

I've probably come up with a few more, but those are the ones that spring to mind as being most useful; the second more so than the first.

Mark

[The Funk]

Is there something wrong with just going R, 3, 5, 7, 9, 11, 13, Second Octave?

[Bilbo]

I always used to do just that i.e. R 3 5 7 9 11 13. The technique requires you to move your hands quickly and accurately (and, if you play fretless, VERY accurately) and, for me, contributes a lot in terms of learning the geography of the neck.

[Mikey D]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='431528' date='Mar 11 2009, 02:15 PM'](and, if you play fretless, VERY accurately)[/quote]

Amen!

I'm just finishing work so don't have time to post everything, but I practice arpeggio/extended arpeggios, alot! When I first start learning about 14 years ago I only ever did arpeggios as they were in the rockschool grade I was taking. Once I passed that I didn't practice them at all until I started studying/playing properly again a few years ago. Very naive on my part, especially considering I'm trying to play that jazz music.

I'll post when I get home some of the arpeggio excercises I use.

[Simon]

I've got some excellent exercises i'll be adding to my website soon that are based on extended arpeggios. Keep an eye on my site (in my sig) and i'll add them in the coming days/weeks.

[Mikey D]

The main arpeggio material I practice is from Uni as taught to me by my improvisation teacher who has the most ridiculous grasp of the jazz language I have ever heard. All of this actually feeds into playing, not just practicing shapes technique. The bits I practice that refer to extended arpeggios are as follows:

What you were referring to as playing through a chord in 3rds, I will call a 'stack'. It is a stack of thirds created from a scale/mode, but of course gives you the complete 13th chord.

1-3-5-7-9-11-13

Obviously this should be practiced for major and melodic minor scales and from each degree of their scale/i.e. all of their modes.

I play these completely up and down, and as McGraham said all the way up, shift up a tone, then down again.

I find looking at it as two 7th chords over each other helps when playing as I can come up with the sound easier as I technically only need to think of the upper section of the extended arpeggio:

Cmaj7 Dm7 - C E G B D F A C - Cmaj13 - Ionion (C Major)
Cmaj7 D7 - C E G B D F# A C - Cmaj13#11 - C Lydian
C7 Dm7 - C E G Bb D F A C - C13 - C Mixolydian (A pretty unexciting dominant sound though if we are honest)
C7 D7 - C E G Bb D F# A C - C13#11 - C Lydian Dominant (4th mode of G melodic minor)
C7 Ddim - C E G Bb D F Ab C - C7b6 - F Melodic Minor
Cm7 Dbm/7 - C Eb G Bb Db E Ab C - Calt - Db Melodic Minor
Cm7 Dm7 - C Eb G Bb D F A C - Cm13 - C Dorian
Cm/maj7 Dm7 - C Eb G B D F A C - Cm/maj7 - C Melodic Minor

Of course there are more, but these are just a few common sounds, you can probably work out all the others when you have played through all the modes.

Then you isolate 3, 4, 5 and 6 note 'cells' from within the 7 note 'stacks' and use as melodic templates. So over Cmaj use say a 5 note stack from A (A C E G as the source for your playing.

I personally think in 4 note cells a lot as they are easier to manage and remember their relationship to the underlying chord.

i.e. in Cmajor isolate 4 notes starting from E (EGBD). Playing this in all its inversion etc as described by McGraham over Cmajor you can hear the sound. This gives you a Cmaj9 sound or from A (ACEG) gives you a C6 sound. I wouldn't tend to use any of the others as they would present an F natural, and most commonly (obviously not always) would want an F#. This is when I start looking at the other modes. So for major, the Lydian mode is probably more convenient to use. Now if you start a 4 note shape on D (DF#AC) you create a Cmaj13#11 sound.

Once you get used to using all the shapes/sounds within a particular scale there is nothing stopping you super imposing others, but it helps if you know where it came from and why you are doing it. One of the best way is understanding how melodic minor shapes can fit over chords and in particular dominants. So over C7 play the melodic minor stacks C is on the 2nd, 4th, 5th and 7th degrees. (Bb G F and Db) or another way of looking at it, the melodic minor starting on the 7th 5th 4th and b9th These create the following sounds in order C7 sus b9, C7#11, C7b6 and Calt. You can then start taking shapes out of these modes (or any others) to access the sound you want.

You can then take it a little further by decoration of the triads and 4 and 5 note cells from above and below using chromatic and diatonic combinations to approach the structures from the stacks and you know, it sounds little more like jazz!

I've probably not covered exactly what you meant, but I kept typing and the above came out. I hope it is of some use to you anyway.

[velvetkevorkian]

Thanks a lot guys! I think I really need to get used to thinking of it as music rather than a physical exercise. Realising the 13th chord is just a bunch of triads combined is quite helpful also. Thanks for all your advice.

[Bilbo]

Great post, Mikey. It all makes perfect sense.

[Mikey D]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='432153' date='Mar 12 2009, 09:12 AM']Great post, Mikey. It all makes perfect sense.[/quote]
Cheers! I really do practice this a lot and has really improved my technique, intonation on fretless and note choice. Although, I'm still rubbish.

[The Funk]

Thanks for the post about cells and stacks, Mikey! Will try this soon.

[mcgraham]

So Mikey, your 'cell' selection, do you select four notes to use as a palette (so to speak) for your soloing, i.e. using them as the primary colours? If so, how do you personally choose your four notes? Is it quite artificial like 'each chord I will use the 2 4 6 and 7', or are you quite free in your interval choice each time the chord comes around?

Just curious!

Mark

[Mikey D]

[quote name='mcgraham' post='433471' date='Mar 13 2009, 12:06 PM']So Mikey, your 'cell' selection, do you select four notes to use as a palette (so to speak) for your soloing, i.e. using them as the primary colours? If so, how do you personally choose your four notes? Is it quite artificial like 'each chord I will use the 2 4 6 and 7', or are you quite free in your interval choice each time the chord comes around?

Just curious!

Mark[/quote]

Hi

For practice I suppose you could say it is quite artificial, with the idea being that you can access different sounds or have access to strong melodic statements when you actually play. Say you were playing over Cmaj you would possibly use the C lydian stack. So C E G B D F# A C.

Take 4/5/6 of whatever many notes as your melodic template. When i refer to cells in this case, I am purely talking ones that are derived from the stack of thirds. So using 4 say I may practice with G B D F#. Initially only these notes in order for the whole range of the instrument. Using chromatic and diatonic approach tones on each degree. Playing around them using enclosures diatonicially and chromatically on each degree. Obviously in any inversion for the whole range of your instrument as well. It can be seen as a technical exercise but I find it really does give you access to a lot more melodic ideas to have at your disposal.


Regarding the other use of 'cells' ala Coltranes Giant Steps:
I have practiced using say 1-2-3-5 on every major/dominant chord and 1-3-4-5 on every minor. Then using a fixed pattern for the upper extensions on the chord say 5-13-7-9 on major/dominant and 9-3-11-7 on minor. Use whichever ones you like the sound of, I got this approach from one of the Bergonzi books. I practice this much like I practice playing arpeggios through a whole piece. It can sound very artificial when playing through using the same shape for every chord, but then you practice every inversion. Then you try mixing up all inversions while playing to try and make a line. The next step is to use different cells on each chord to create a line, then using different cells and different inversions. With the aim being that you are able to do it completely at whim.

This approach is great for fast moving material, but yes I agree it isn't particularly musical, although the results can be, but it is just another approach to playing which i think is good to have and really helps with the understanding of what tones you are playing over certain chords.

[mcgraham]

Thanks for your response Mikey, good to gain some insight into what you're doing.

Coltrane's solo on Giant Steps is 'artificial' at least on paper, and I've read a number of articles criticising, or least playing down the hype, regarding Giant Steps as a result. However, if it sounds good, where's the problem? Why does it matter how the musician ended up with that arrangement? I can think of a number of songs that have very formulaic phrases that adorn or even underpin a piece, but they work, and that's what matters.

I have meant to sit down and go through the 1-2-3-5 and 1-3-4-5 (major and minor respectively) beginner's approach from GS, but have (to my shame) not done so. It totally makes sense that things can develop massively from there onwards. Just reading stuff like this spurs me on though, and I can't wait to get home and practice now.

Mark

[Simon]

Don't know if any of you guys will find this of use but thought I'd post it just in case.

This exercise is actually inspired by and exercise Jaco Pastorius used to do, and he demonstrated something like it on that DVD of his. It's an excellent exercise for knowledge and dexterity.

It's called "Harmonized Major Scale Exercise" and is under the "scales, modes and arpeggios" heading.

[url="http://www.thebassment.info/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=8&Itemid=9"]Harmonized Major Scale Exercise
[/url]

Cheers.