The Short Scale Bass Appreciation Society!

[scrumpymike]

59 minutes ago, Rich said:

Pleeeeease bring it to this year's BFSWBB..!  

Certainly will!

[dmc79]

I’ve never played a short scale bass or even considered one before but it seems they are becoming more popular. I am a Fender P player and short scale only crossed my mind recently because one of the leaders in the church band I mainly in likes to play songs in ‘challenging’ keys like Eb & Bb. Whilst that in itself doesn’t bother me, I’ve realised that moving from first to fourth fret on my long scale P a whole bunch on a song is starting to kill my hand.
 

So whilst I’m not sure I want to change, I kind of feel like I may HAVE to at some point. I guess others have made the change for this same reason. I’d like to hear from you, and I’ll read back through this topic too. I’ll wager that some went over to short scale and never looked back, but I’ve seen short scale basses for sale on eBay where the users have said that it was a failed experiment and they weren’t feeling the short scale love. I am also curious as to if medium scale is a good sort of middle ground, or if it’s so little difference from long scale that it’s not worth the change. 

 

I realise this is probably a stupid thing to ask, but I’m presumably the frets being closer together, hence easier playability, is the main reason for people to go to short scale? Are they often lighter too or does this make little difference? I love the thought of that first to fourth fret stretch being easier on the hand, but I’m trying to figure out if the sacrifice is worth the change. By that I mean that I’m yet to see an off the shelf short scale bass / colour combo that really leaps out at me. Also is short scale way different in terms of tone, sustain, availability & choice of strings, etc? 

Then what short scale bass to choose? I’ve been a Fender guy for years but really not keen on the Mustang bass (or Squier Bronco). Does that really only leave the Squier VM Jaguars, which have been discontinued? That could be a two birds with one stone thing as I’ve always wanted to try a Jaguar anyway. 
 

I’ve been looking at pics of G&L Tribute Fallout & Schecter Banshee, they look ok but I’m a still not a huge fan. The one that has me interested right now is the Sterling By Music Man Stingray. I’ve never played a Ray, in my head I have it marked down as a funk rock Flea thing and associate it mainly with slapping, something I have no interest in doing. But thinking about it some more, I have plenty of albums that feature a Ray and I always like the bass tone on them - stuff like The Cure, Ride, Fugazi, Slowdive, Isis, some Radiohead, etc. So perhaps I owe it to myself to try one.
 

Without opening a can of worms, I am guessing that the difference between a SBMM Ray and an Ernie Ball MM Ray is similar to the difference between MIM & MIA Fenders, would that be fair to say? Also do you think the SBMM Ray short scales are good value at around £600 new? I’m sure I’ve seen comments here and there where players can’t tell much difference between SB & EB Rays. My only slight hesitance on them is the limited colour options. I’d prefer a darker colour, so of the current 3 options, I like Dropped Copper the best. If there was a black on black on maple option I’d get one without thinking. 
 

I am also interested if anyone can post in real terms what the first to fourth fret ‘stretch’ is on a short scale bass. Love to hear your thoughts on what I’ve said, and in particular about the Stingrays & Squier VM Jaguars. Thanks! 

Edit: I love the look of the Sandberg California Lionel too, some nice colour options there 
 

Edited March 5, 2022 by dmc79

[Obrienp]

Wow, dmc79 lots to answer there and some of it is a bit subjective, so a lot of this IMO.

 

Yes, the 4 fret stretch is easier. One of the bands I play in is a blues band that does a lot of up tempo stuff, with some rock and roll thrown in for good measure (so lots of 4 fret stretches). A combination of age related issues and small hands was combining to make it real murder on my big boy ‘51 Precision (copy): by the second set I was finding it physically impossible to keep my speed up and my hand would literally cramp up. Moving to a 30” scale has made it so much easier. I can now do a 2 set gig and keep my speed up without discomfort. Fret 1 to fret 4 on my 30” basses is about 11.5 cm/4.5”.

 

Weight: shorties do tend to be lighter but there are some notable exceptions, so it is worth checking before pulling the trigger. The Reverend Watt Plower is made of lead according to some folks and some Chowny basses were a bit weighty but they say they are addressing that now they have moved to UK manufacture. Generally they are lighter, so less shoulder and back strain on prolonged gigs.

 

A drawback that comes with diminished size and weight can be neck-dive but that can be countered with a grippy strap and/or lightweight tuners. Not all shorties suffer: my Ibanez EHB1000S is perfectly balanced but it is far from your Fender aesthetic.

 

I have noticed that there are quite a few slab bodied shorties: e.g. Fender Mustang, Gretsch Junior Jet, etc. it’s a matter of taste but I find the lack of an arm contour causes forearm pain playing standing up for protracted periods. This isn’t unique to shorties of course.

 

Strings: I think it is fair to say there isn’t the same huge choice that you get for standard bass and that can reflect in a price premium. Most of the big manufacturers do rounds and flats for 30 and 32” scale basses.

 

Finding one that suits your Fender P Bass preference: well it depends on what you want to spend. There is actually a much wider range of short scale basses than a perusal of the usual online shops would lead you to believe. If you have Fender Standard/Performer range money both Sandberg and Maruszczyk do short and medium scale versions of their P Models (and Jazz). Maruszczyk seem to do every colour combination you could think of. If you really can’t find what you want, getting a custom bass made is not as expensive as you might think. I had a custom P/J shorty made on a ‘51/54 P Bass theme for the same money as the Fender Performer Mustang by Tony Edwards Guitars and I am sure other luthiers will do similar.

 

There is a thread on the short scale Stingray somewhere on this forum.

[BassApprentice]

To throw another spanner in the works, there is Medium scale (32") basses available - most popular one to dip your toe in the water is the Ibanez Mezzo. 

 

Depending on when and if you want to try short scale and want the best possible start, I'd go for a Sandberg Lionel - P bass sounds and the quality is always spot on. 

[Woodinblack]

Would also mention here that Fender Precisions did also at various points come in medium scale (32"), which might be useful for you.

[scrumpymike]

Blimey, that's quite a list of things to address! As it happens, I can answer most of them from experience, so here goes. Maybe worth mentioning first that my s-s love goes back to the start of my playing career, when I was just naturally attracted towards Gibson basses - thanks mainly to Andy Fraser and Jack Bruce among others. At that point, I didn't even know there were different scale lengths, so it was a pure stroke of luck that the first bass I bought was a Watkins Rapier that happened to be short scale.

 

So, to your first question. You've pretty much answered that yourself based on the obvious physical differences down to one thing being shorter than another. However, the only things that HAVE to be shorter are the fretboard and the neck. The other things you need to think about are: the body - this can be shorter too (as the bridge is closer to the top of the neck) if you want the shorter reach to the fret (and all the other frets of course 🙂). If you do decide you want your s-s bass with the back of the bridge assembly very close to the bottom edge of the body, you'll have to think about strap balance. This is determined by the positioning of the top strap button and the ratio between body weight and headstock weight. Best case = top button at the F12 sweet spot and the heaviest body you're comfortable with. Worst case = top button south of F12 and lightweight body. An interesting example of this is the Gibson SG, which has a fairly heavy body and a top button on the heel of the neck. In this respect, lightweight tuning machines are your friend. In my case, I've got short-ish arms and fingers and medium-ish hands. So, my custom-made gig bass is designed to give me a short reach for my fretting hand and, having my preferred (large) Fender-style headstock, has a compact body (based on the Fender P Lyte) and lightweight tuners (see below).

 

Re the choice of off-the-shelf basses (including some discontinued), there's a MIC s-s Fender Jazz up on here (OK if you don't mind a body that's on the heavy side and only 19 frets) and a Jaguar (OK if you don't mind neck dive). My pick of the P-style stuff currently available new is undoubtedly the Sandy Lionel - I've had one and I couldn't fault it (as Adee who bought it on here agrees).  I've also had the SBMM s-s Ray, which is massive value for money if you like the 'Ray vibe. American owners on Talkbass who are familiar with both versions say that in practical terms the ownership experience of the SBMM is so close to its 'full-fat' brother as makes no difference. Don't know about the Banshee but looks interesting.

 

Re strings, your choices should be adequate if limited

 

Hope this helps.

 

 

 

 

Edited March 5, 2022 by scrumpymike

[scrumpymike]

If you really are a committed Fender P-bass man, it's worth pointing out that I don't think you'll ever match those distinctive, industry-standard tones with any s-s bass.  You may get pretty close though depending on what other kit you have.  All I can say is that I love the range of sounds I'm getting from my multi-pickup s-s basses strung with La Bella flats through my Mesa TT-800/Barefaced SC3 x 2 rig.

[dmc79]

Thanks for the replies everyone. I’ll read through them (and the topic) properly over the coming days 

[Maude]

If you want to dip your toe into the short scale pond and you like a Precision then getting a second hand Ibanez Talman TMB30 might be a good idea. They're only £170 new so should be able to find a second hand one for about £100. 

Very Precision like neck, PJ pickups and absolutely belting given the price. Quite weighty though but it would give you an idea if a short scale is what you want, then move it on for the same money, or keep it. 

 

 

[scrumpymike]

2 hours ago, Maude said:

If you want to dip your toe into the short scale pond and you like a Precision then getting a second hand Ibanez Talman TMB30 might be a good idea. They're only £170 new so should be able to find a second hand one for about £100. 

Very Precision like neck, PJ pickups and absolutely belting given the price. Quite weighty though but it would give you an idea if a short scale is what you want, then move it on for the same money, or keep it. 

 

 

Agreed. Had one of these and they are amazing value for money.

[Sambrook]

Harley Benton shorty P? Cheap enough to use as a taster/tester...

I haven't had one, but owners rate them.

[Adee]

Sandberg Lionel all the way, superb, sound is punchy and articulate, build is as good as it gets, neck is soooo nice, comfortable and look great. I also have a JMJ Mustang that is spot on and a EBMM Stingray short scale which is just brilliant ... but for the money the Lionel (and thankfully is actually a California and no mention of Larry on the bass at all) wins hands down on bang for buck ! @Osiris has a Lionel too an might weigh in with his opinion

[Osiris]

@dmc79 I moved to playing short scale basses exclusively a few years ago due to a damaged nerve in my left wrist, if you're getting pain in your fretting hand it could possibly be a similar issue. But for me it meant that I could no longer play a 34" bass for more than a few minutes without cramping up. But once I'd tried a short scale I could play for hours without issues. The shorter neck, tighter fret spacing plus me being a bit of a short arse meant that it was a revelation and something I wish I'd have done decades ago. Every time I play a 34" bass now it just feels huge, unwieldy and 

awkward to play. 

 

If you're a Fender guy I'd definitely recommend at least trying a Mustang, you mentioned that you're not too keen on the looks, I wasn't either but once I'd played and owned one I was a convert. There's now a number of different models, each with their own tone and neck profile so there's likely one out there that would suit you if you're willing give them a go. My suggestion for classic Fender tones would be the PJ Mustang although it has more of a jazz profile neck which you may not like being a P man. If you want a chunky necked Mustang then the JMJ is the one.

 

Budget hasn't been mentioned (unless I missed it) but as Maude says the Ibanez Talman is a fantastic bass, more so for how cheap they are. I've been playing for around 35 years now and the Talman is one of my favourite basses I've ever played. It's got a chunky Precision like neck and the PJ pickups may be just what you're after. Mine has had some hardware upgrades as the stock stuff is a bit cheap and cheerful, but you're talking about an entire bass that costs half of what a set of boutique pickups or machine heads would cost. But even so I've only spent another £50 or so on it. Yes it looks a bit daft, like one of the Mr Men has melted, and it's not overly light. But it's solidly built, mine resonates better than just about any other bass I've ever played, and the neck is very comfortable to play and would likely feel familiar coming from a P. 

 

As the lovely @Adee says the Sandberg Lionel is sublime, looks great, attention to detail everywhere and impressively lightweight. Its inherent tone is more like that of a 34" scale, some short scales can be a bit deeper and darker sounding than a 34" but it's nothing you can't EQ out if it's not your thing. 

 

As for stings, I still use 34" scale on my basses as I had a job lot in my box of odds and sods when I made the switch to short scales exclusively. Depending on the bass you may need to snip off 50 mm or so off them to get them to fit, and again bass dependent, you may get some of the fat part of the E sting (before it tapers) wrapped around the machine head capstan but I've been doing it now for a few years without any trouble or snapped strings. There's a few people online who'll tell you that you shouldn't do it but my experience tells me otherwise. 

 

The obvious thing to do is to try and get yourself to shop that has a few short scale models in stock and try as many as you can, hopefully one of them will be right for you.  

[grayn]

I gigged with an American Performer Mustang and really enjoyed it's feel and sound.

None of the short scales I have owned had neck dive.

That will probably apply more to Gibsons/Epis and Hofners.

Here's my present duo:

Sterling by MM Stingray and Sandberg California II Lionel.

Both a real delight to play and hear.

[TK4261]

Marusczcyk is also something to look at. I am loving my 30" Jake P from Marusczcyk

 

[dmc79]

Thanks for all the replies to my short scale noob questions. It may take me all day to try and quote bits from various posts, so I’ll just add my thoughts here. 

 

Regarding budget, it kind of depends if I’d want to go all in at some point or not. If I did, I’d drop 1K for the likes of a Sandberg. As an experiment though, perhaps a Squier Mini P or Ibanez Talman TMB30 would offer a good trial run. I’m just a little hesitant to get something that cheap, only to find I like SS and soon want something better then have the hassle of moving el cheapo on. 
 

Thanks for pointing out that Mustangs have slab bodies. I’ve all but ruled them out now on this along with the fact that I’m not keen on them anyway. It seems though that if you want a Fender SS, Mustang is your only choice? It’s more a cosmetic thing for me. They probably sound fine, I’m just really not sold on the looks. Not a fan of the mini pickups on the Squier Bronco & Classic Vibe, Fender JMJ, Vintera & American Performer. The Fender PJ looks better but I’m not a fan of that toggle switch position or the colour options. In fact the only Mustang colour I’d consider is the JMJ black roadworn. Even then, I’m not really a roadworn fan anyway. That does look pretty nice though, especially with a black plate. 

 

Squier VM Jaguars look nice but they are discontinued so I guess that drives used prices up, also neck dive is not something I want to deal with. 
 

I’ve seen mixed thoughts on the G&L Fallout Tribute, with some saying it’s a bit overpriced for what it is. The Schecter banshee is quite a unique beast with its Telecaster looks. Not sure I like the mini guard & chrome knob plate but quite like the carbon grey finish. Any fans of the Banshee out there?
 

EBMM Stingray seems like a lot of bass for the money, but I’ve seen comments here and there about finishing problems, and I’m just not sure about the body shape. Plus any bass with more than 2 knobs frightens me, I like to keep it simple! 
 

I can rule out basses like Hofner Violins, Gretsch Junior Jet, and Gibsons just on aesthetics alone. Not my bag. 
 

I guess if I did make the switch, I’d want something as close to a P as possible, and the Sandberg California / Lionel seems to tick a lot of boxes in terms of looks and I believe it sounds great too. Good to see several comments singing the praises of these. Looks like a lot of options too. I’m just not sure how I feel about ordering online from the likes of Thomann, as I’ve never spent that kind of money on an instrument with an online shop before, so I’m not sure what it’s like in terms of what the hell they do with your bass if you’re not in when they try to deliver it. Any input on this appreciated. Unless I missed it, I couldn’t see an answer to this in their FAQ despite it being an important issue. I’m not a big fan of the side jack on the California, they always feel in the way if I’m practicing sat down. I was glad to get rid of that when I sold my MIM Deluxe Active Jazz years ago. 

So thanks for the input, I’ll keep watching the thread, some great pics in here. I’m still undecided, I guess I’ll just have to see how it goes with long scale and my left hand as to whether I try out SS or not. I am tempted to get a cheapish one just to try it out, and take it from there. 

 

 

 

Edited March 11, 2022 by dmc79

[BabyBlueSound]

2 hours ago, dmc79 said:

Regarding budget, it kind of depends if I’d want to go all in at some point or not. If I did, I’d drop 1K for the likes of a Sandberg. As an experiment though, perhaps a Squier Mini P or Ibanez Talman TMB30 would offer a good trial run. I’m just a little hesitant to get something that cheap, only to find I like SS and soon want something better then have the hassle of moving el cheapo on. 

 

I guess if I did make the switch, I’d want something as close to a P as possible

 

 

For what it's worth, the TMB30 has a very nice P sound once you dial down the J, and the nut width is 41mm, fairly close to a P feel. Not sure if the regular 43mm P would even work on a shortie  I really really enjoy my TMB30 and it put me off from buying more expensive basses for a while now, as I just don't feel I'd need one. It just feels nice, it's just... friendly when you play it, without feeling too small.

 

But it IS a cheap bass. I had smaller cosmetic issues, loose screws, but even bent machinheads.

 

So if you're going down the cheap trial route, get one, inspect closely for any faults, play it for a while, and send it back if you don't like it. For £150-ish, you might as well keep it even if you choose to get a Sandberg or something, it really is a nice bass to look at.

[dmc79]

14 hours ago, whave said:

 

For what it's worth, the TMB30 has a very nice P sound once you dial down the J, and the nut width is 41mm, fairly close to a P feel. Not sure if the regular 43mm P would even work on a shortie  I really really enjoy my TMB30 and it put me off from buying more expensive basses for a while now, as I just don't feel I'd need one. It just feels nice, it's just... friendly when you play it, without feeling too small.

 

But it IS a cheap bass. I had smaller cosmetic issues, loose screws, but even bent machinheads.

 

So if you're going down the cheap trial route, get one, inspect closely for any faults, play it for a while, and send it back if you don't like it. For £150-ish, you might as well keep it even if you choose to get a Sandberg or something, it really is a nice bass to look at.

Thanks. The mint choc chip thing (mint green bass & black plate) is really cool on the Talman. I’m very tempted to order one of these for £179. Seems like a fun bass and good entry point for short scale. It also has a contoured back which I’ve learned not all shorties do, a nice shape and I guess is comfortable? It seems like a no brainier for that money. There is a massive Talman club topic on a certain American bass site which I’ll have a look at, as no doubt many users have upgraded stuff on these. 
 

Edit: Just seen that there’s a Talman club here too:

 

 

Edited March 12, 2022 by dmc79

[BabyBlueSound]

24 minutes ago, dmc79 said:

 It also has a contoured back which I’ve learned not all shorties do, a nice shape and I guess is comfortable? There is a massive Talman club topic on a certain American bass site which I’ll have a look at, as no doubt many users have upgraded stuff on these. 

 

 

I find it comfortable, yes. It is certainly a great upgrade platform  I changed the screws and the machineheads to black, installed EMG PJ pickups and since I had to replace the knobs for the EMG potmeters, those got changed too. Long-term project is to get a black bridge.

 

Here's mine from an earlier post:

 

 

 

Edited March 12, 2022 by whave

[Obrienp]

The Talman makes a great modification platform. The bridge (actually the OEM is not bad) is 7 screw mounting (on my 5 string) but looks as though modern Fender 5 screw fit will do; the machine heads are big old vintage style, so lots of choices; pickups may be a bit of an issue on the 5, if you don’t want to route, as the jazz is the same size as a four string; OEM nobs are horrible but easily replaced; the pots are tiny but seem to work OK. Fretwork, etc was fine on mine.
 

Based on my 5 string, the only mod I really needed to make was to shield the cavities because it hummed a lot out of the box. The OEM P pickup isn’t bad to my ears and I only use the jazz to add some tonal colour to the P. I did more mods but IMO you need to be careful not to spend too much, as you will never recover it if you decide to sell.

[BabyBlueSound]

2 minutes ago, Obrienp said:

the machine heads are big old vintage style, so lots of choices

 

Only problem with that is I tried two sets of similar machineheads and 2 out of 4 screwholes were always just 1mm away from where they should be. So seems like Ibanez went for something non-standard there. Ultimately just used some bamboo, wood glue to plug in old holes and then drilled new ones for the black Schaller machine heads.

 

[ezbass]

1 minute ago, whave said:

 

Only problem with that is I tried two sets of similar machineheads and 2 out of 4 screwholes were always just 1mm away from where they should be. So seems like Ibanez went for something non-standard there. Ultimately just used some bamboo, wood glue to plug in old holes and then drilled new ones for the black Schaller machine heads.

 

Pencil - check

Digital rule - check

Wire clippers - check

Dog paw - er… check 

 

Whatever you used, quality result.

[Obrienp]

11 minutes ago, whave said:

 

Only problem with that is I tried two sets of similar machineheads and 2 out of 4 screwholes were always just 1mm away from where they should be. So seems like Ibanez went for something non-standard there. Ultimately just used some bamboo, wood glue to plug in old holes and then drilled new ones for the black Schaller machine heads.

 

Thanks, that’s useful to know if I ever have to replace mine. I will have the cocktail sticks and wood glue on standby. At least you don’t have to drill out the post holes.

Edited March 12, 2022 by Obrienp

[BabyBlueSound]

5 minutes ago, Obrienp said:

At least you don’t have to drill out the post holes.

 

Actually now that you mention, the post holes are once again not standard, they're 1-2mm larger in diameter than the rings for the Schaller. The Schaller rings were a little bit loose and even if I tried to pad it with some masking tape, it resulted in head buzz. So I spray painted the original post hole rings black and used those  Not perfect as it chips off quite easily, I could scrape it off with my nails, but that's a part you hardly touch anyway so it works.

 

That little string holder thingy in the middle is also spraypainted 

 

[Obrienp]

2 minutes ago, whave said:

 

Actually now that you mention, the post holes are once again not standard, they're 1-2mm larger in diameter than the rings for the Schaller. The Schaller rings were a little bit loose and even if I tried to pad it with some masking tape, it resulted in head buzz. So I spray painted the original post hole rings black and used those  Not perfect as it chips off quite easily, I could scrape it off with my nails, but that's a part you hardly touch anyway so it works.

 

That little string holder thingy in the middle is also spraypainted 

 

That must have been irritating. I would probably stick with standard chrome, so retain the originals as is. I tend to do this anyway to avoid having to drive the original collets out of the headstock: one less thing to go wrong.

 

On that theme: I am sure I have seen spacer collets on one of the online store websites. These are designed to take up the slack in situations like yours but it just adds to the cost. Your solution is more cost effective.