Warwick Fortress Masterman 2x2EQ; Adding another battery in parallel?

[Lfalex v1.1]

As per the title, I guess!

I've a Warwick Fortress Masterman 5. It has the MEC active twin Jazz (also used in the Infinity, Dolphin & Vampyre at the very least)

In this application, it has a Volume & Pan (stacked) , and a Bass/Treble (also stacked) for EACH coil.

As far as I'm aware, the MEC active 2-band won't run at 18v, so series connection of two 9v batteries is out.

There's enough room for 2 9v blocks in the cavity if I remove the original single holder. I'm sure I can improvise something that'll hold a pair.

What am I trying to achieve? A bit more headroom, I think. It can all sound a bit compressed sometimes. Battery life is ok. I don't need to double it!

Does series connection double the voltage and parallel double the  available current?

Anyone with a bit of knowledge, feel free to chime in! 

Thanks in advance,

Alex.

[inthedoghouse]

Try asking on here.  I know it's a Fortress One area but there are usually some helpful people there.

https://forum.warwickforum.com/threads/the-fortress-one.4912/

I've got all three of the Fotress series - lovely instruments

[Lfalex v1.1]

1 hour ago, inthedoghouse said:

Try asking on here.  I know it's a Fortress One area but there are usually some helpful people there.

https://forum.warwickforum.com/threads/the-fortress-one.4912/

I've got all three of the Fotress series - lovely instruments

Thanks for that. Forgot about Warwick Forums!

So you've got a One, Masterman AND a Flashback, then?

Did they do a Pro-M, or was that just Streamers?

[inthedoghouse]

6 minutes ago, Lfalex v1.1 said:

Thanks for that. Forgot about Warwick Forums!

So you've got a One, Masterman AND a Flashback, then?

Did they do a Pro-M, or was that just Streamers?

I bet someone on the Warwick forums can answer your 18v question.

As far as I know they only did the standard models of the Fortress series back then.

Any excuse to show my Fortress family 🙂

Edited June 18, 2020 by inthedoghouse

[Lfalex v1.1]

Loving that Flashback. Never seen a red one, mostly green or blue!

I also like the black hardware on the Masterman.

[Lfalex v1.1]

On the subject of Red...

[inthedoghouse]

1 minute ago, Lfalex v1.1 said:

Loving that Flashback. Never seen a red one, mostly green or blue!

I also like the black hardware on the Masterman.

Thank you 🙂  The Flashback weighs a ton, maybe partly due the huge 2-Tek bridge but it's lovely to play, as are they all.  I read on the Warwick forum they only made 75ish with that bridge.  I love the Fortress series.  Not everybody's cuppa, I know.  I've got a '96 Corvette too which I use a lot.

Good luck with your question.  Perhaps you can report back here if you get an answer. 🙂

 

[inthedoghouse]

Just now, Lfalex v1.1 said:

On the subject of Red...

I LOVE the colour!!! 🙂 🙂  I'll have to start saving and searching, ha ha! 🙂

[hubrad]

Back on topic, series doubles the voltage, which is what you'd want for increased headroom. This is the purpose of running EMG setups at 18V, which they are buit to handle.

Parallel keeps you at 9V, doubling the capacity, i.e. battery life. Your preamp will still just take the current it needs, so no effect on your sound.

If the MEC gear you have will definitely handle 18V then go for it, otherwise I'd leave it safe and working. 

[itu]

On 17/06/2020 at 15:28, Lfalex v1.1 said:

What am I trying to achieve? A bit more headroom, I think. It can all sound a bit compressed sometimes. Battery life is ok. I don't need to double it

You need a DMM (digital multimeter) with recording function, or try to read the measurings while playing. Max and min values of the voltage and the current tell about the battery's ability to push energy to the circuitry. If there is a notable drop in voltage, your issues are related to the battery. Then you can put another in parallel.

Start with the measurements.

 

[Lfalex v1.1]

Thanks for the replies everyone.

From what I've ascertained, the MEC circuit (and presumably the active component of the pickup) will not handle 18v, so series is out of the question.

I'll have a nose around the Warwick Forums and see what I can uncover.

Alas that I don't have a multimeter, or I'd have a quick measure across the output whilst playing.

[ikay]

If you can't get more headroom out of the MEC circuit one option might be to swap that out for a John East BTB-01 Bass/Treble stack which will run at 18V.

https://www.east-uk.com/index.php/bass/single-stack-modules/btb-01.html

Edited June 21, 2020 by ikay

[goingdownslow]

In the 18v Thumb that I have, although the two 9v batteries are in series the active pickups run from a centre tap so they only get 9v.

[Lfalex v1.1]

8 minutes ago, goingdownslow said:

In the 18v Thumb that I have, although the two 9v batteries are in series the active pickups run from a centre tap so they only get 9v.

That's interesting;

Suggests that the active MECs can only take 9v... Assuming that you have MECs and not EMGs!

[goingdownslow]

1997 Thumb with MECs and 3 band eq.
Not keen on the 3 band eq as the treble control @8khz is ineffective as I have this frequency cut on my amp. The 2 band set at 2khz is more usable for me.
I am also thinking of taking one battery out as the output is too hot compared to my earlier 1990 9v Thumb which is more comparable to a passive bass output.

[hubrad]

53 minutes ago, goingdownslow said:

In the 18v Thumb that I have, although the two 9v batteries are in series the active pickups run from a centre tap so they only get 9v.

Hmm.. that suggests +9V, 0V, -9V

Hopefully someone more into preamp technicalities will be along soon!

[Delberthot]

But if the bass is only getting 9v from the two batteries and you remove one then it will still be getting 9v so it shouldn't affect the output level - I would have thought that would only be the case if running at 18v, although I could be talking complete cobblers

Or would it be 4.5v from a single battery which would be too low for the preamp to use? Would it work with only 1 battery or would that be break in the circuit if there was one missing?

Edited June 19, 2020 by Delberthot

[Lfalex v1.1]

1 hour ago, goingdownslow said:

1997 Thumb with MECs and 3 band eq.
Not keen on the 3 band eq as the treble control @8khz is ineffective as I have this frequency cut on my amp. The 2 band set at 2khz is more usable for me.
I am also thinking of taking one battery out as the output is too hot compared to my earlier 1990 9v Thumb which is more comparable to a passive bass output.

Same year as the Fortress I've got..

Does it still work with just the one 9v? Maybe a trim-pot instead or (whisper it) turn the volume control down? That's what I do with my Vigier. That's 18v and can be a bit "peaky" rather than particularly hot (yes, I know compressors exist!)

[goingdownslow]

1 hour ago, hubrad said:

Hmm.. that suggests +9V, 0V, -9V

Hopefully someone more into preamp technicalities will be along soon!

It is only the pickups that are getting 9v, it is an 18v feed to the pre-amp.

 

1 hour ago, Delberthot said:

But if the bass is only getting 9v from the two batteries and you remove one then it will still be getting 9v so it shouldn't affect the output level - I would have thought that would only be the case if running at 18v, although I could be talking complete cobblers

The pre-amp is fed via the two 9v batteries in series so is getting 18v.
I did read once that Warwick had increased the voltage to give more headroom but that later basses went back to 9v. 

 

4 minutes ago, Lfalex v1.1 said:

Does it still work with just the one 9v? Maybe a trim-pot instead or (whisper it) turn the volume control down? That's what I do with my Vigier. That's 18v and can be a bit "peaky" rather than particularly hot

I will give it a go over the weekend, it only needs the terminals on one of the battery connectors shorting out.
Turning it down does work but I like to start off with it maxed knowing it can't go any higher.
Here is a schematic showing the pickups getting only 9v from the centre tap.

[goingdownslow]

Well that little experiment didn't work, still the same hot output at 9v.

[Delberthot]

I don't know enough about this so hopefully someone will be along to explain it but I can't understand how the preamp can get 18v and the pickups 9v using the same two batteries.

That's why I thought it was 18v for both and either 9v with one battery or nothing

[ikay]

30 minutes ago, Delberthot said:

... I can't understand how the preamp can get 18v and the pickups 9v using the same two batteries.

In the diagram above, follow the orange line from the pickups and you can see it connects with one terminal of the lower battery. This taps off a 9V feed to the pickups. The second battery is connected in series to the lower battery and delivers the full 18V (9V+9V) to the preamp.

[unpluggedjack]

Sorry... bit late to this thread but might be useful for someone in future...

 

When I tried this a few years ago I contacted Warwick and they said the MEC active  pickups I had in my 94 Fortress were rated to 18v but the MEC 2 band electrics were rated to 9v. I was replacing the electrics anyway so ran MEC pickups with EMG circuitry and used 2 batteries in series to get 18v

 

I noticed no difference in sound quality but the battery life was terrible! I went back to 9v

[Lfalex v1.1]

Thanks for the info. 

That might well explain the variety of answers to the question that exist out there in the Net.

Maybe I should fit 3 batteries! 2 in series for the pickups,  and another to run the EQ! 🤣

[Bassman68]

On 19/06/2020 at 21:01, goingdownslow said:

1997 Thumb with MECs and 3 band eq.
Not keen on the 3 band eq as the treble control @8khz is ineffective as I have this frequency cut on my amp. The 2 band set at 2khz is more usable for me.
I am also thinking of taking one battery out as the output is too hot compared to my earlier 1990 9v Thumb which is more comparable to a passive bass output.

Does your circuit board not have a trim pot to tame the output?
I have trim pots on my 93 Streamer 3 band, 93 Corvette pro 2 band & 96 Thumb Nt 3 band..