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Have I been had?!

Swaffle88

By Swaffle88,
in Bass Guitars

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Grangur Mentor

Grangur

Posted
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, thegummy said:

That doesn't work as an analogy - you're talking about minor accidental cosmetic damage (which I definitely do point out when selling an instrument) but it's actually a deliberate swap of a key component to something else.

@ClassicVibes  & @thegummy, it really all depends on where and how this was bought. If he bought it after seeing it in the flesh then, under UK Law, legally it's  "buyer beware". It's down to the buyer to take a look and satisfy yourself that you know what you're buying.

If it was an internet sale, then it's something that should be in the description. But after 12months + are you really thinking he stands a chance of complaining to the seller through EBay?

Sorry guys, but after a year it's a bit late now.

Edited by Grangur
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thegummy Enthusiast

thegummy

Posted
Posted
26 minutes ago, Grangur said:

@ClassicVibes  & @thegummy, it really all depends on where and how this was bought. If he bought it after seeing it in the flesh then, under UK Law, legally it's  "buyer beware". It's down to the buyer to take a look and satisfy yourself that you know what you're buying.

If it was an internet sale, then it's something that should be in the description. But after 12months + are you really thinking he stands a chance of complaining to the seller through EBay?

Sorry guys, but after a year it's a bit late now.

I wasn't talking about legality though I really doubt that the law leaves it up to the buyer to be able to tell if some of the parts had been swapped. Maybe if you quoted specific legal text that said that I'd change my mind.

On basses swapping pickups is seen as common and usually an "upgrade" but the law doesn't specifically cater to basses, it's just an item sold where part of it has been changed to something by a different manufacturer.

If the neck or body was swapped would it still be up to the buyer to spot that? If everything except the volume knob was swapped? How much of the original item are you saying the law requires to remain what is advertised for it still to be up to the buyer to notice?

Or are you saying they could call it an American Fender, it really is a Harley Benton with the logo changed and it's still up to the buyer to notice at the time, otherwise that's perfectly legal?

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ClassicVibes Enthusiast

ClassicVibes

Posted
Posted
32 minutes ago, Grangur said:

@ClassicVibes  & @thegummy, it really all depends on where and how this was bought. If he bought it after seeing it in the flesh then, under UK Law, legally it's  "buyer beware". It's down to the buyer to take a look and satisfy yourself that you know what you're buying.

If it was an internet sale, then it's something that should be in the description. But after 12months + are you really thinking he stands a chance of complaining to the seller through EBay?

Sorry guys, but after a year it's a bit late now.

"Buyer beware" ?

I'm pretty sure you're wrong on that front. Has stated in the following link: 

https://www.gov.uk/marketing-advertising-law/regulations-that-affect-advertising

The Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations mean you cannot mislead or harass consumers by, for example:

Including false or deceptive messages

Leaving out important information

Using aggressive sales techniques 

 

Has @thegummy says, "Are you saying they could call it an American Fender, it really is a Harley Benton with the logo changed and it's still up to the buyer to notice at the time, otherwise that's perfectly legal?" 

If it was bought through eBay and paid with PayPal, they could very easily find in favour of the buyer. If he can prove that in the original listing there was no mention of a pickup change and the bass was advertised as stock, then this is false advertising and a refund would be issued; presumably the bass would need to be returned to sender. 

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Bobthedog Proficient

Bobthedog

Posted
Posted
47 minutes ago, ClassicVibes said:

"Buyer beware" ?

I'm pretty sure you're wrong on that front. Has stated in the following link: 

https://www.gov.uk/marketing-advertising-law/regulations-that-affect-advertising

The Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations mean you cannot mislead or harass consumers by, for example:

Including false or deceptive messages

Leaving out important information

Using aggressive sales techniques 

 

Has @thegummy says, "Are you saying they could call it an American Fender, it really is a Harley Benton with the logo changed and it's still up to the buyer to notice at the time, otherwise that's perfectly legal?" 

If it was bought through eBay and paid with PayPal, they could very easily find in favour of the buyer. If he can prove that in the original listing there was no mention of a pickup change and the bass was advertised as stock, then this is false advertising and a refund would be issued; presumably the bass would need to be returned to sender. 

That is for business sales. Private sales are subject to buyer beware or “caveat emptor” to use the legal expression. 

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NancyJohnson Grand Master

NancyJohnson

Posted
Posted (edited)

Just throwing this in.

Has @Swaffle88 actually removed either of the pickups to determine what they are?  Also, how would he/she feel if the non-matched pickup was something premium/expensive, like a Lollar or Lindy Fralin?  Would the opinion then be that they had got one over on the seller?

Edited by NancyJohnson
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Bobthedog Proficient

Bobthedog

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, thegummy said:

So even the Harley Benton example is legal?

If the sale was by a private individual, fraud etc may possibly come into play, however under caveat emptor which is a part of English Law, yes, you the buyer are responsible to spot it was not a Fender. It is your fault. If this was a sale by a business, the Sale of Goods Act 1979 (as amended) would come into play alongside various consumer protection laws giving you the protection the buyer would want. I do not believe Distant Selling Regulations apply to a private sale either, but am prepared to be advised on that. 

Two examples taken from the internet are:

"An early illustration of this principle relates to the 1523 sale of a horse which could have been either tame or “wylde”.  In the second case the seller would not be responsible, as: 'caveat emptor beware thou byer'. 

A more recent example is the 2004 case of Sykes v Tyler Rose. A couple in Yorkshire discovered via a TV documentary that the previous occupant of their house had brutally murdered his adoptive daughter there. They took the seller to court, claiming that they should have been told this before the sale. The judge was sympathetic but rejected their claim - it was up to them to find out about the house’s history if this was important to them."

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thegummy Enthusiast

thegummy

Posted
Posted

Just want to be clear first and and say that I'm not claiming to know for a fact that it is illegal or otherwise.

But in that house example, it's obviously a very different scenario so the ruling in that specific case doesn't itself indicate that anything there is to be known about an item being sold privately is up to the buyer to find out. It could be that that very specific piece of information wasn't deemed important enough to require telling anyone since most reasonable people wouldn't care.

It would be different if it was an important piece of information about the house itself, e.g. The walls are made of a material that you can't screw or nail anything in to. If the judge had deemed something like that to be still up to the buyer to find out then it would be an appropriate example (or if the bass situation was that it used to belong to a paedophile or something rather than having part of it changed).

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Bobthedog Proficient

Bobthedog

Posted
Posted
50 minutes ago, thegummy said:

Just want to be clear first and and say that I'm not claiming to know for a fact that it is illegal or otherwise.

But in that house example, it's obviously a very different scenario so the ruling in that specific case doesn't itself indicate that anything there is to be known about an item being sold privately is up to the buyer to find out. It could be that that very specific piece of information wasn't deemed important enough to require telling anyone since most reasonable people wouldn't care.

It would be different if it was an important piece of information about the house itself, e.g. The walls are made of a material that you can't screw or nail anything in to. If the judge had deemed something like that to be still up to the buyer to find out then it would be an appropriate example (or if the bass situation was that it used to belong to a paedophile or something rather than having part of it changed).

The house may be poor examples but it does not change the impact and effect of caveat emptor.

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thegummy Enthusiast

thegummy

Posted
Posted
3 hours ago, Beedster said:

Sorry, is this a ‘61 Jazz advertised as all original and imported at great expense and unseen from LA, or a recent Mex that was inspected and bought in person?

Are we not getting a little carried away here :)

Aye I do agree with that on this occasion - it's not like it came stock with Custom Shop pickups that they might have swapped out to sell separately or keep - the likely scenario is that the pickup was replaced as a perceived upgrade or if the original one broke, it's unlikely it was replaced with something inferior to the basic ones that came with the Mexican Standards.

I was more interested in the idea in general. If I'm about to buy anything second hand in the future I'll definitely be looking in to the legal aspects of this. If the bass I'm buying is meant to have high end pickups then I'd want to make sure I got them but it's pretty difficult, if not impossible, to tell without taking the bass apart (or even then, depending on the brand).

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thegummy Enthusiast

thegummy

Posted
Posted
3 hours ago, Bobthedog said:

The house may be poor examples but it does not change the impact and effect of caveat emptor.

I only had a quick Google but I did find that, while buying privately comes with fewer protections than buying brand new from a retailer, it's not just left down to "buyer beware" and that's the end of it. If it's advertised as a "Fender Jazz Bass" then it would have to actually be a Fender Jazz Bass.

I only had a brief look so didn't find any specifics about how much can have been replaced but it clearly can't be something completely different - even if the buyer doesn't spot it at the point of sale. So either it has to be a complete Jazz model bass made by Fender or there's an allowed amount of leeway for parts being changed.

I'll take the time to find that answer if it's going to affect me.

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Beedster Grand Master

Beedster

Posted
Posted
On 30/06/2020 at 08:30, Machines said:

I really wouldn't be losing any sleep over this, if it sounds decent get on with playing it. If you really want matching pickups get a replacement set or even just covers.

100%, you'll probably spend a while finding and installing the 'original' PUP only to find you preferred the imposter. I bought a bass with a dirt cheap (to my mind) pair of PUPs a couple of years back, I looked at them in disgust, played the bass for a while, was impressed, but wondered just how much better it would sound with some Nordstrands. Two days later, courtesy of Bass Direct, a pair of Nordstrands were in the bass and, f**k me sideways if I didn't prefer the cheapies (Toneriders by the way). So I thought I'd check, reinstalled the Toneriders and yes, for that bass, with those strings, the lovely vintage feel of the Toneriders knocked the socks off their 400% more expensive Scandinavian counterparts, which came across as a little sterile by comparison. 

Assumption, as they say, is the mother of all pink torpedo-ups :)

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Beedster Grand Master

Beedster

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, ClassicVibes said:

Toneriders are good pickups though! 

Yes, very good, but I didn't know that at the time, and going on price assumed them to be not very good. In the context of this thread, I was simply saying "Don't assume the PUPs are not good just because they're not what you expected"

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