How to pick a new amp?

[dmccombe7]

14 minutes ago, alexa3020 said:

Appreciate the suggestions, I think I’m gonna just have to try a few out and then go with my gut & hope it works well in the band setting. 

If I can’t find anything I like I’ll just stick with the Hartke ampeg setup for gigs which I do like, and tc and gk for practices.

Anyone experienced with the orange terror?

Tried the new Terror 500 thru the new 112 cabs in Guitar Guitar with a P bass and it sounded pretty impressive even when turned down to lower volume after the shop guy set it for me at deafening volume.

It had plenty of depth and was a rig i might have gone for myself. I think our very own @karlfer put together. Maybe he can shed some light on it. If i remember right that was around or just over your budget for amp and 2 cabs..........i think. 

I had the OBC115 & 210 cabs but they were heavy cabs.

Tried a mates ancient Orange all tube bass head thru his 810 Hartke cab in his studio and it was a fantastic sound but he said the tube amp was a bit delicate and unreliable so he use the Hartke HA500 head live.

Dave

 

[Cuzzie]

If you like your amps - consider changing your cabs - that may be all you need.

Personally I loved my Hartke LH1000

[chris_b]

I'd change one thing at a time. Keep your amps and replace your cabs with one good one. Your current amps are OK and you can replace them later if you find you still need to.

That Barefaced Big Twin 2 in the classifieds would be my first call.

But. . . . . .  before you do anything else, get some hearing protection. Proper moulded plugs like ACS. You will be going deaf sooner rather than later if you are rehearsing at gig volumes.

[peteb]

19 hours ago, Mudpup said:

I personally haven't found any regular class D mini amp that will hang with my loud rock covers band. Same as the OP, they sound great at home and have brilliant features on them and i love them until i take them to a noisy gig and they get buried by the drums and twin guitars. I can get by with them but i haven't found THE ONE yet.

I always seem to go back to my Gallien RB700 and i've come to the conclusion that i'm just not a class D guy. I've tried loads of them and the only one that comes close to keeping the punch and slam and not just flattening out when you turn it up is a Quilter BB800 - i've had it for a few years whilst others come and go but you have to get used to its quirky layout.

Had a Mesa D800 earlier in the year, got a Magellan 800 now that i've gigged about 4 times and will be moving on soon. I've had a Markbass Evo, GK Fusion500, a Genz Shuttle over the years. I'm thinking of giving it one last go and trying a Darkglass M900. The newer breed of class D are much better than the old ones to be fair. Maybe i'll just order a Handbox R400 and hope its not just a niche trend that new amps become on here sometimes - that's probably a more sensible option and sounds more likely to be the right thing for me but the Darkglass looks fun. 

As far as the Handbox goes, I've had the same issues with Class D amps as you. I had a Mesa D800 that sounded great in certain situations, but struggled onstage with the heavier stuff (especially when competing against keyboards IME). I eventually sold the D800 and got a Handbox R400, which is great. I did have issues getting used to the EQ section, but once you get your head around that then it is a really nice sounding amp that works well in any live situation that I've come across since getting it.  

[Dan Dare]

18 hours ago, dmccombe7 said:

I found with the Markbass that it doesn't have a lot of on stage oomph but it seems to sit very well between guitars, keys and drums allowing it to be very clear in the mix. 

I've heard a few people say the same about the Markbass LM3 v Mesa D800. 

Dave

I've found that MB doesn't necessarily sound the best close up, but out in the room, it sits really well in the mix. I've heard several players using MB amps and have always been impressed. The sound just seems to fill the space properly. Some of the amps that sound good in the showroom can fall a bit flat in a live context, when the tonal subtleties you liked in the shop are drowned by a full band.

[NancyJohnson]

I've gone through quite a lot of stuff over the years...have never really found an amp that does everything I want.  Desired tone is a Geddy Lee/dUg thing; so until recently I've been using various Tech21 stuff for pre-processing then into a power stage (Matrix power amps or the effects return on a head). 

Right now I have two routes; basses into Darkglass A/0 or a dUg DP3 pedal into the effects return thereof.  I rehearsed in Brighton last year with an Ampeg 8x10 and the Darkglass had no problem filling the place with headroom to spare.  Generally though, I'm just using a Barefaced Big One...little point at this juncture in updating my speakers.  Current set up does rock/punk/metally without issue.  Small and portable.

[peteb]

9 minutes ago, Dan Dare said:

I've found that MB doesn't necessarily sound the best close up, but out in the room, it sits really well in the mix. I've heard several players using MB amps and have always been impressed. The sound just seems to fill the space properly. Some of the amps that sound good in the showroom can fall a bit flat in a live context, when the tonal subtleties you liked in the shop are drowned by a full band.

Markbass might not have the 'wow' factor when you listen to them on their own, but they always work well in a live mix and the old Italian built / non Class D amps have plenty of power for their RMS ratings. 

[chris_b]

You buy an amp for its sound. Then you chose the number of watts you require.

I don't understand how a type of amp architecture can be blamed for not being loud enough! Watts are converted into SPL by the cab. If you have a good enough cab(s) and the right amount of watts then getting buried in the mix has to be down to the players use of EQ. 

I can make your ears ring with my 700 watt D class amp through 2 BF 112  cabs. I have been asked to turn down because the neighbours 2 doors away are complaining about the bass. Once, on an outdoor gig, from a house 100 yds away because they couldn't hear their TV. D class amps are as loud as you want them to be.

Everyone has a sound that they prefer and that can be valves, SS or D class, but being buried in the mix isn't about electrical components.

[Mudpup]

Just now, chris_b said:

You buy an amp for its sound. Then you chose the number of watts you require.

I don't understand how a type of amp architecture can be blamed for not being loud enough! Watts are converted into SPL by the cab. If you have a good enough cab(s) and the right amount of watts then getting buried in the mix has to be down to the players use of EQ. 

I can make your ears ring with my 700 watt D class amp through 2 BF 112  cabs. I have been asked to turn down because the neighbours 2 doors away are complaining about the bass. Once, on an outdoor gig, from a house 100 yds away because they couldn't hear their TV. D class amps are as loud as you want them to be.

Everyone has a sound that they prefer and that can be valves, SS or D class, but being buried in the mix isn't about electrical components.

It's not a volume thing with class D - they can be plenty loud enough. For me its about maintaining the quality of the sound as you push them. I find they get thinner sounding and more 'shouty' as they get louder - still plenty of volume but not in a good way. Some other types of amp seem to keep the thump and welly more intact as you get louder and that's what i prefer - it can actually be quieter but still have the thump that you can feel. I read somewhere a while ago - on the interweb so it must be true - that class D can only maintain the initial burst of power for a relatively small amount of time whereas older technology could physically 'hang on to it' a touch longer and this was what made it sound a bit fuller at volume i suppose. It's more that you can still feel it rather than just being loud. I don't remember the science behind it but it sort of made sense to me. But anyway, the class D thing has been covered loads elsewhere and everyone has a view on it.

[Bobthedog]

49 minutes ago, Mudpup said:

It's not a volume thing with class D - they can be plenty loud enough. For me its about maintaining the quality of the sound as you push them. I find they get thinner sounding and more 'shouty' as they get louder - still plenty of volume but not in a good way. Some other types of amp seem to keep the thump and welly more intact as you get louder and that's what i prefer - it can actually be quieter but still have the thump that you can feel. I read somewhere a while ago - on the interweb so it must be true - that class D can only maintain the initial burst of power for a relatively small amount of time whereas older technology could physically 'hang on to it' a touch longer and this was what made it sound a bit fuller at volume i suppose. It's more that you can still feel it rather than just being loud. I don't remember the science behind it but it sort of made sense to me. But anyway, the class D thing has been covered loads elsewhere and everyone has a view on it.

My Glockenklang Blue Rock maintained its sound without change in tone, welly, thump etc, all the way up.  I would not rule out all class D using a generalisation. 

[Mudpup]

1 minute ago, Bobthedog said:

My Glockenklang Blue Rock maintained its sound without change in tone, welly, thump etc, all the way up.  I would not rule out all class D using a generalisation. 

Fair point - I just haven’t found one yet 😊

[dmccombe7]

8 minutes ago, Mudpup said:

Fair point - I just haven’t found one yet 😊

I think i know what you mean with the sound "thinning" the higher the volume.

I always put that down to the fact i was standing directly in front of the cabs and the higher volume was throwing the sound further out past me. ?

That's with a full MB rig and a GK MB rig altho it was the small MB200 which is not a high volume amp anyway.

I did notice it when i used my Genz Streamliner 600 thru my Berg Neo AE112 cabs but when using same amp at same settings thru my Berg HT322 heavyweight cab the tone was full and never thinned.

Could it be the speaker design causing the problem. I can only talk from my own experience. I've heard other bass players using lightweight gear and it was in no way thin when ramped up but i was sitting in the audience directly in front of bass rig.

Dave  

Edited July 6, 2020 by dmccombe7

[chris_b]

1 hour ago, Mudpup said:

For me its about maintaining the quality of the sound as you push them. . . . .

All touring PA systems are D class driven and have been for years, so D class is capable of handling anything that is thrown at it from the Dog and Duck to Glastonbury.

All types of amps will flake out when you push them too far, which is often the case down the Dog and Duck. IMO if an amp sounds bad when you're pushing it buy a more powerful amp, so it isn't being pushed as hard. Watts are the cheapest part of your sound so big wattage numbers, owning more than you are going to use, is the best way.

A fuller/better tone and getting lost in the mix is about not underpowering your rig and getting the EQ right.

When I saw your band all those years ago in Knaphill, I don't know what amp you had, but your BB2 filled the place. Standing at the back of the room, you were the loudest guy in the band and the mix formed around you. Bigger venues just need more of the same.

As I said everyone has different tone goals, but if the nay-sayers are right then D class wouldn't have pushed every other amp type into niche markets.

[cetera]

Sounds like your issue is EQ.

Any decent quality head and 2x12 size cab or larger should be fine once you find your 'EQ space' in your band. Be aware that the lovely sound you have at home is probably not the same sound that would work well cutting through a band. e.g. so many people like the smiley face EQ and then wonder why their tone disappears live behind the bass drum and the guitars/cymbals. Work on your mids - low mid is more effective than full on bass.... and high mids will add the clank that cuts in a rock band.

If you're adding pedals you will also further blur the EQ and minimise the difference in head that you use.

Any good 'typical rock' head with a quality cab with decent power should do the business when EQ'd correctly... e.g. GK, Ampeg, EBS etc...

[Al Krow]

18 minutes ago, Mudpup said:

Fair point - I just haven’t found one yet 😊

Did you just buy that really competitively priced DG M900 v2 in the FS? 

If so, you could be in for a very pleasant surprise!

[wateroftyne]

6 minutes ago, chris_b said:

All touring PA systems are D class driven and have been for years, so D class is capable of handling anything that is thrown at it from the Dog and Duck to Glastonbury.

 

My stock answer to the this is that Glastonbury's FOH isn't powered by car radio ICE modules 🙂

[chris_b]

8 minutes ago, wateroftyne said:

My stock answer to the this is that Glastonbury's FOH isn't powered by car radio ICE modules 🙂

500 - 1200 watt car radios?  Really?

[wateroftyne]

Just now, chris_b said:

500 - 1200 watt car radios?  Really?

What do you think the ICE in ICEpower stands for...?

[Dad3353]

2 minutes ago, chris_b said:

500 - 1200 watt car radios?  Really?

5800w car radio amp ...

[dmccombe7]

Good point on the FOH thing. Our PA is a QSC lightweight rig and it certainly isn't short of power, depth or oomph.

As others have said it has to be down to either under-sized bass rig or EQ. 

That's why going wireless was great for me because i could go out front and have a decent listen to the overall sound rather than mostly my own amp.

I have a bad tendency to turn down my own amp behind me to balance the on stage mix. When we use backline that can be an issue for the guitarist at the other end of the stage who struggles to hear me. Now i go out front, have a listen, tweak my EQ as required altho its almost always flat or just of the centre zero point on bass and amp. Depending on bass being used i sometimes cut the mid a touch and with others i boost the bass a touch and i literally mean a touch from 12 o clock to absolute max 1 o clock if boosting anything and 11 if cutting anything.

At your next rehearsal try using a long lead and listen to the full band from out front and tweak from there. Obviously if going thru PA then your sound guy should sort out any issues.

I've used other bands bass rigs and thought bass sounded weak and top ended on stage to go out front and the sound guy has added the  depth and bottom end. Maybe its down to the low end cabs used ?

Dave

[dmccombe7]

14 minutes ago, wateroftyne said:

What do you think the ICE in ICEpower stands for...?

Sorry to say i don't know. Tried googling but came up with Bang & Olefson power amp company ?

Any chance you could explain for us older idiots like me.

Dave

[Mudpup]

26 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

Did you just buy that really competitively priced DG M900 v2 in the FS? 

If so, you could be in for a very pleasant surprise!

No, i tried to but he never got back to me......think i missed the boat.
I've decided on a Handbox instead i think 🙂 I was thinking about an older m900 but i think i just don't do microamps in gig situations (i'm not calling them class D anymore because it derails threads) 

[Mudpup]

39 minutes ago, chris_b said:

When I saw your band all those years ago in Knaphill, I don't know what amp you had, but your BB2 filled the place. Standing at the back of the room, you were the loudest guy in the band and the mix formed around you. Bigger venues just need more of the same.

Wow that was a while back!!! Dreadful carpet i seem to remember and a guitar dep we'd never met before.

That wasn't a microamp - it was an Ashdown ABM i think. I rest my case......(said with a smile 😉)

Edited July 6, 2020 by Mudpup

[Painy]

10 minutes ago, dmccombe7 said:

Sorry to say i don't know. Tried googling but came up with Bang & Olefson power amp company ?

Any chance you could explain for us older idiots like me.

Dave

In Car Entertainment. 🙂

[Dad3353]

9 minutes ago, dmccombe7 said:

...Any chance you could explain ...

ICE = In Car Entertainment