Kings of Leon - Charmer - what is going on with the time signature?

[shoulderpet]

Have always liked this song but the drumming on this has always bugged me, I know it is in time but for some reason it has always sounded a bit off starting from when the drumming starts and getting worse during the verses, what is going on here? Thanks

[YouTube]

[/YouTube]

https://youtu.be/yCd1vXsvkV4

Edited July 8, 2020 by shoulderpet

[Nail Soup]

Sounds like he is simply playing the snare on beats 1 and 3, instead of the normal backbeat of 2 and 4.

You know - the way some people clap along to music.

[gjones]

I can hear what you mean. Is the singing in a different time signature, from the drums, on the chorus? It gives it a very edgy feel.

I like it.

[Dad3353]

It's the old Ginger Baker 'Sunshine Of Your Love' trick, playing snare on the 'One'. 

[gjones]

  On 08/07/2020 at 12:11, Dad3353 said:

It's the old Ginger Baker 'Sunshine Of Your Love' trick, playing snare on the 'One'. 

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Is that inverting the beat? I play with a drummer, occasionally, who does that just to kiss me off

Last time he did it, was actually on a Cream song......the Swine!

Edited July 8, 2020 by gjones

[Maude]

  On 08/07/2020 at 12:03, gjones said:

I can hear what you mean. Is the singing in a different time signature, from the drums, on the chorus? It gives it a very edgy feel.

I like it.

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I think the singing is 'in time' with the guitars, it's just the the snare being on the 'wrong' beat puts everything on edge. 

Obviously the drum isn't wrong and shows just how comfortable you get with a certain way of drumming that just putting the snare on the opposite beat than your brain is expecting can trip you up. 

An excellent drummer in a previous band would, when everything but bass and drums dropped out on a song, throw in all sorts of unexpected patterns to try and trip me up. It became a game and I very nearly lost a few times live. 

[acidbass]

Yeah it's the crash on the 4 before the drums come that make it sound even weirder, but it's simply 4/4 with the beat inverted. The tempo is a different matter, it's a bit loose, certainly no click track on that session.

[Dad3353]

  On 08/07/2020 at 12:23, gjones said:

Is that inverting the beat?...

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Yes; if it's unexpected it can disturb, until one gets the hang of it. Reggae beats are often away from the one (the 'One Drop' being perhaps the most evident...). It's only really in recent times, musically, that the 'Two-Four' downbeat has become so ingrained. I blame Mr. Presley and Co. 

Edited July 8, 2020 by Dad3353

[shoulderpet]

  On 08/07/2020 at 12:27, acidbass said:

Yeah it's the crash on the 4 before the drums come that make it sound even weirder, but it's simply 4/4 with the beat inverted. The tempo is a different matter, it's a bit loose, certainly no click track on that session.

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Yeah I think it is the combination of that and the (I assume) slightly sloppy feel to the drumming, would be interesting to hear the song with a straight 4/4 beat with the snare on the 2 and 4

[Nail Soup]

  On 08/07/2020 at 12:59, shoulderpet said:

Yeah I think it is the combination of that and the (I assume) slightly sloppy feel to the drumming, would be interesting to hear the song with a straight 4/4 beat with the snare on the 2 and 4

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You might be able to persuade a covers band to do that instead of "Sex on Fire" 

Edited July 8, 2020 by Nail Soup

[BassApprentice]

  On 08/07/2020 at 12:02, Nail Soup said:

Sounds like he is simply playing the snare on beats 1 and 3, instead of the normal backbeat of 2 and 4.

You know - the way some people clap along to music.

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Don't worry, Harry Connick Jr can sort that

 

[Nail Soup]

So what is the snare doing in this song - Dress by PJ Harvey..... (I like it by the way)

 

 

[Dad3353]

He's forcing a slower 2/4 against the 'normal' 4/4 beat, creating a polyrhythm. A similar effect can be heard in the last few bars of SOAD's 'Toxicity', where the bass drum punches out a cross-rhythm in the same way.

Edited July 8, 2020 by Dad3353

[Maude]

  On 08/07/2020 at 21:05, Dad3353 said:

He's forcing a slower 2/4 against the 'normal' 4/4 beat, creating a polyrhythm. A sismilar effect can be heard in the last few bars of SOAD's 'Toxicity', where the bass drum punches out a cross-rhythm in the same way.

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I can't really hear that bass drum polyrhythm here 😉.