Balanced string tensions

[erisu]

Hi all,

I’ve recently been geeking out on the idea of replacing my current strings with some balanced tensioned ones.

I noticed certain gauges are tighter when I tune to drop G# on my 5-string specifically with the G, D and abit on the A string. Found Newtone strings, a UK supplier of strings and saw they manufacture any sized gauges up to .200

After some research I found the gauges on what apparently is the perfectly balanced tensioned strings.

Has anyone done this sort of experiment and what were your results? Doesn’t have to apply to drop tuning you’ve done this experiment on.

[itu]

The basics behind this tension thing is to replace thickness (gauges) with tension. Instead of 40/60/80/100 with equal tension is a nobrainer. I think you just have to understand these together, as we have been discussing decades about gauges and gauges only. Another thing is that do you need this one number of tension, or can you live with several thickness numbers and those varying lbs.

[erisu]

11 minutes ago, itu said:

The basics behind this tension thing is to replace thickness (gauges) with tension. Instead of 40/60/80/100 with equal tension is a nobrainer. I think you just have to understand these together, as we have been discussing decades about gauges and gauges only. Another thing is that do you need this one number of tension, or can you live with several thickness numbers and those varying lbs.

That’s precisely it. I have those exact gauges for drop A# on my Dingwall NG2 but the .40 and .80 strings are too stiff for my liking therefore too high of a tension. Apparently those strings have a high tension in terms of feel and vary in all sorts of Ibs of tension too.

So I worked out with the specific gauges i’m looking to get I’ll need to buy the strings separately from Newtone strings and the recommended gauges give the right Ibs of tension too.

So overall if all works out I should get equal tension across all strings with the right amount of Ibs of tension on the neck too that’s not too light nor heavy hence a balanced tension.

Edited July 11, 2020 by erisu

[Delberthot]

Apart from the specific balanced tension sets that D'addario make - I found that the perfect set using single strings is 45, 60, 80, 110 and although it's slightly lower tension I use a 135 B when the need arises

[erisu]

1 hour ago, Delberthot said:

Apart from the specific balanced tension sets that D'addario make - I found that the perfect set using single strings is 45, 60, 80, 110 and although it's slightly lower tension I use a 135 B when the need arises

Is that for standard tuning on 4 and 5 string? I’m using 55, 75, 90, 110, 160 on a 34” inch scale Ibanez 5-string for drop G# tuning. It’s not bad but the G, D and A string is abit tight for my liking.

[Delberthot]

yes that's standard tuning. I find this to be very helpful, just work out what tension you want to start with on each string and find the closest match to each string

https://www.daddario.com/globalassets/pdfs/accessories/tension_chart_13934.pdf

[Hellzero]

Kalium also has great balanced sets. Worth looking at it, but be prepared with mismatching during the packing as it's more than a habit by them.

https://kaliummusic.com/shop/strings/electric-bass/hybrid/balanced-sets/

[Matt P]

Newtone would definitely be my first port of call for balanced tension strings, i have been using their Heritage balanced tension acoustic guitar strings for about 10 years now, they're excellent, great tone, equal tension and long life. I have no doubts that they could make you up a balanced bass set to the same standard.

If they made flatwounds then i think they would be the only brand i would use.

 

Matt

[thodrik]

I have been downtuning some of my basses for the best part of twenty years (being a long time Black Sabbath, Mastodon and Queens of the Stone Age fan will do that to you). Here are my rambled thoughts on the subject. 

In my opinion, the more you tune down the more balanced tension becomes important. In my opinion lots of 'heavy gauge' strings apparently designed for lower tunings are incredibly unbalanced and in my opinion are actually not very well suited for lower tunings. 

I tried the DR DDT sets of 55-115 for C# standard tuning years ago (2013 I think) and the two highest pitched strings were incredibly tight and unusable (for me) for anything higher than C sharp tuning but the lowest string was getting overly floppy at anything below a low D. It got worse as the low B strings in the 'heavy' five string set did not go any larger than a 135 which in my opinion wasn't much good for anything lower than a standard low B. They were also really expensive. 

I did try Newtone for a custom set in about 2014. However they didn't end up with giving me the gauges I actually requested which for the price I was paying irked me a bit as the resulting set I received much less balanced than than what I had ordered. While the strings were very nice I didn't find them much (or any) better than a 'custom' set of D'addario singles I could make up and order myself at a much lower cost.  So I have generally stuck to making up my own sets of strings from D'addario on the basis of finding a 'balanced-ish' tension.I try to keep a similar string tension in my lower/drop tunings to my preferred standard tuning set of 100-40. It is a bit of trial and error until you find a type of string and the gauges that are optimal for the tuning you use. 

For G# standard I was using the the balanced tension four string set of D'addario 120, 90, 67 and 50 (usually available for under £20) and for the low G# string I used a tapered 160.  The 160 worked fine but after a few rehearsals I realised that I didn't need the low G#. On reflection if I needed to go that low I think I would need a 35 inch scale (or longer) or a fanned fret type instrument.

As it is, my fives are now strung to drop B (B, F#, B, E, A) with Elixirs 130, 95, 70, 50, 32 which is technically 'up-tuning' rather than down-tuning. I'm really impressed as Elixir strings last for ages and have saved me a bunch of money as a result. However,  no super heavy Elixir bass string exists for super low tuning so a low G sharp isn't really possible. 

Edited July 14, 2020 by thodrik

[Baloney Balderdash]

My current 4 string set of D'Addario XL Nickle Plated Steel Roundwounds, tuned in F# standard tuning, as in 2 half steps above regular E standard tuning, on my 28,6" scale Ibanez GSRM20 Mikro Bass I deliberately chose to be pretty balanced:

 

.040 -  A2 string = 28.90 lbs

.055 -  E2 string = 30.92 lbs

.075 -  B1 string = 31.20 lbs

.095 - F#1 string = 27.73 lbs 

 

Really just a standard short scale D'Addario EXL 220S, Nickle Wound, Super Light, 40-95, set, with the .060 string (usually tuned D2, but in my case E2), swapped out with a seperately bought single .055 string.

And it actually works really well, plays, feels and sounds great.

But honestly not that much of a real difference from just using the usual much higher tension standard .060 string.

 

The 40-95, Super Light, EXL220 set is one of their most tension balanced sets already though, even if they do actually offer a .040 - .055 - .070 - .095 set, called EXL 220BT too, actually labeled as a balanced tension set, where the .070 string, in my situation, tuned to B1, would have a tension of 27.53 lbs, technically not really all that much more balanced than using a .075 string from the regular EXL220 set instead, compared to the average tension of the other strings, I just personally prefer it to have slightly higher than average tension, instead of slightly lower than average tension, hence my choice. 

 

Using D'Addario's online string tension calculator "String Tension Pro" : http://web.daddario.com/StringTensionPro/

Edited July 16, 2020 by Baloney Balderdash

[BigRedX]

So how do you know when string tensions are "balanced"? Because from what I'm seeing here "balanced" does not at all mean "equal".

If we are talking about taking compliance into account to get a "balanced" feel between the strings then that is going to vary depending on the design of the instrument they are fitted to - break angles across the bridge and nut and the length of non-speaking portions of the string. What might feel "balanced" on one instrument will not feel balanced on another due to compliance.

[Baloney Balderdash]

2 hours ago, BigRedX said:

So how do you know when string tensions are "balanced"? Because from what I'm seeing here "balanced" does not at all mean "equal".

If we are talking about taking compliance into account to get a "balanced" feel between the strings then that is going to vary depending on the design of the instrument they are fitted to - break angles across the bridge and nut and the length of non-speaking portions of the string. What might feel "balanced" on one instrument will not feel balanced on another due to compliance.

Balanced tension when talking strings usually means approximately equal tension, as in balanced, not spot on straight dead on equal tension in numbers, but pretty much in feel.

With the kind of tension differences like for instance in the set I mentioned you practically won't actually feel any tension difference when fretting, bending e.t.c in your fingers/hand.

You might call it balanced tension feel instead if you please and it bothers you that the numbers are not exact matches. 

If you were to make a set where the tension numbers were straight dead on equal you'll end up with some pretty odd string gauges, so I guess they just settled for it actually feeling as if they were exact equal tension instead, which is what really should matter anyway, so they wouldn't have to fabricate all sort of special custom odd gauge strings, just to soothe people's OCD rather than fingers.  

Edited July 16, 2020 by Baloney Balderdash

[Hellzero]

Check Newtone and Kalium for really balanced sets. They are not afraid of odd numbers at all. Worth checking Thomastik too for the opposite, even if they don't mention unbalanced, but that's what their strings gauges are...

Edited July 16, 2020 by Hellzero
Hate typing on curved screens

[BigRedX]

2 hours ago, Baloney Balderdash said:

Balanced tension when talking strings usually means approximately equal tension, as in balanced, not spot on straight dead on equal tension in numbers, but pretty much in feel.

With the kind of tension differences like for instance in the set I mentioned you practically won't actually feel any tension difference when fretting, bending e.t.c in your fingers/hand.

You might call it balanced tension feel instead if you please and it bothers you that the numbers are not exact matches. 

If you were to make a set where the tension numbers where straight dead on equal you'll end up with some pretty odd string gauges, so I guess they just settled for it actually feeling as if they were exact equal tension instead, which is what really should matter anyway, so they wouldn't have to fabricate all sort of special custom odd gauge strings, just to soothe people's OCD rather than fingers.  

Which is what I thought. To get a low B-string even close to the tension of the E it would considerably thicker than the heaviest supplied in standard sets.

However, as I also suspected it's "even feel" which means that the compliance of each string plays a part. Unfortunately compliance IME is as much a function of how the string is fitted to the bass as the string itself, so manufacturers have no way of knowing what adjustments they need to make to the tensions in order for them to work together with the compliance to give an even feel. Unless they also ask for break angles over the witness points and lengths of the non-speaking portions of the string? I haven't seen any evidence of this.

[paul_c2]

Simple question - what is the advantage of balanced tension?

[Hellzero]

None.

[BigRedX]

4 minutes ago, paul_c2 said:

Simple question - what is the advantage of balanced tension?

It's supposed to make all the strings "feel" the same without requiring lubriciously large lower strings and cheese-wire thin upper strings. However as I said in my last post it relies to an extent on the compliance of the string evening-out lack or excess of tension, to give an even feel across the set. However since compliance is in part based on factors which are outside the string manufacturers' control such as the construction of the bass and the way some strings are attached to the bass (on a non-angled headstock for strings that do not pass under a string retainer you have no way of guaranteeing the break angle over the nut), it is IMO a bit of a none-starter, especially for any bass with more than 4 strings.

[bnt]

I've been trying to spec a custom set for either CGDA or GDAE (fifths), and found this string gauge calculator helpful. If I try to balance all strings for about 40lbs each, I get something like this:

My "takeaway" from this is that the relationship is not linear: for a given tension, the gauge roughly halves for every octave up.

Edited July 22, 2020 by bnt

[bnt]

I was surprised to find a D’Addario balanced tension set in a shop here today, so I snapped them up for my HB. The neck is fatter than my other bass and would seem to lend itself to drop tunings, so I have the EXL160BT set, gauges 50 - 67 - 90 - 120. Guitarists (ptui) would call this a light top / heavy bottom set, I suppose. 

Edited July 27, 2020 by bnt

[Jack]

On 16/07/2020 at 13:56, paul_c2 said:

Simple question - what is the advantage of balanced tension?

 

On 16/07/2020 at 13:58, Hellzero said:

None.

On the contrary, I really appreciate the way that the balanced tension sets (at least the D'Addario ones that I use) go a long way remedying the 'floppy E string' that you get, especially when playing with a pick.

 

For the first few years of my bass playing this bothered me, it wasn't until discovering the internet and bass forums I heard about what might the solution. It worked for me.

[PaulThePlug]

Then manufacturers come up with core to wrap low tension, without giving you a number and statments such as  tonaly balanced... If only all manuf quoted the tension per gauge n variety of string...

Like calouries and fat on a biscuit... thats it time for a coffee 'n a orange club... (and i dont mean an early p bass neck in roasted mapel)

Edited August 4, 2020 by PaulThePlug

[Baloney Balderdash]

1 hour ago, PaulThePlug said:

Then manufacturers come up with core to wrap low tension, without giving you a number and statments such as  tonaly balanced... If only all manuf quoted the tension per gauge n variety of string...

Like calouries and fat on a biscuit... thats it time for a coffee 'n a orange club... (and i dont mean an early p bass neck in roasted mapel)

Except not everyone play the same scale length instrument and in the same tuning.

Tension will change according to that you know.

[BigRedX]

2 minutes ago, Baloney Balderdash said:

Except not everyone play the same scale length instrument and in the same tuning.

Tension will change according to that you know.

And also the fact that a lot of the time when people talk about tension what they actually mean is a combination of both tension and compliance.

[Baloney Balderdash]

55 minutes ago, BigRedX said:

And also the fact that a lot of the time when people talk about tension what they actually mean is a combination of both tension and compliance.

Sure, that too.

Some strings will be more flexible than others at the same amount of tension, which again will also partly be influenced by other factors specific for the individual instrument, like for instance, just to name one, the breaking angle of the strings at the bridge. 

As well as at a certain point thicker gauge strings will start to feel stiffer and less flexible on a shorter scale length instrument than they would on an instrument with a longer scale length, tuned to the same note, even if actually naturally being under less tension on the shorter scale.

Which is also true the other way around, thinner gauged strings will at a certain point start to feel more floppy and flexible on a longer scale length instrument than on a shorter scale length instrument, tuned to the same note, even if actually being under more tension from the longer scale. 

Just think about playing a standard 34" scale bass with strings that was picked to have the same kind of tension as the strings on a regular electric guitar typically will have (like try to compare the tension of the individual strings between, let's say, to pick 1 typical set of strings for the 2 instruments respectively that seems to be a very popular choice, a .046 to .010 string set on an electric guitar and then a .105 to .045 set on a 4 string bass, both tuned in E standard tuning, as is most common, but of course an octave apart).

It would be an absolute floppy mess. 

Edited August 4, 2020 by Baloney Balderdash