Jamming on bass and just 'knowing' the chords

[julietgreen]

I have great admiration for rhythm section musicians who can jam. As a sax player, I can usually join in because it's melody and improvisation and I can hear the tonality but the actual chords are not crucial. I don't have the nerve to do that as a bassist. How do you do it? Have you played so much you know the repertoire? Do you know standard chord sequences? Do you hear the chords when you hear a piece of music? Are you really clever? All of the above?

Obviously, I can do it with things like the blues, but otherwise, do I just have a lot of homework to do?

[Woodinblack]

7 minutes ago, julietgreen said:

I have great admiration for rhythm section musicians who can jam. As a sax player, I can usually join in because it's melody and improvisation and I can hear the tonality but the actual chords are not crucial. I don't have the nerve to do that as a bassist.

Its exactly the same thing on the bass as the sax. Ok, the register and purpose is the same but if you can hear the tonality as a sax player, the only thing stopping you doing the same on a bass is familiarity.

 

 

[lownote]

I'm not sure if this is off topic, but I do both sax and bass too.  What I struggle with is having the courage to stop playing and twiddle because on bass you're so used to keeping on playing. I believe Scott Devine has a several short videos on improv on bass which you don't have to pay for

.

Edited July 19, 2020 by lownote12

[Dad3353]

42 minutes ago, julietgreen said:

...How do you do it?...

I trust that you know where the notes are on the sax, so that, when you're 'thinking' them, they get sounded..? The bass is exactly the same, if you've that same familiarity with bass note production. All that's required is the same level of experience playing bass as you have playing sax; the 'process' is identical, as it is with a keys player, or guitarist, or whatever. How do you do it..? Play your bass behind more and more stuff, in whatever genre you wish, and it'll soak in, as it did with the sax. There are 'standard' chord progressions, notably in the Bebop and Real Book repertoire, so, if you are 'into' that stuff, look 'em up, listen to 'em and play along.
My usual encouragement applies, of course...

'It's the first forty years that are the hardest, after which things sometimes tend to get (slightly...) better.' 

Hope this helps. 

[Nail Soup]

I struggle with this. Other areas of music I'm OK at... songwriting, making up basslines and other parts, playing a few different instruments, home recording. OK to my own level of satisfaction anyway.

 

I enjoy going to folk circles, were you take turns in performing a song, and join in with others when they perform. My main instrument at folk circles is ukulele. Occasionally some bass player or other would come and improvise great basslines for the all songs.

So I decided that I would invest in a bass ukulele and small amp and give our folk circles some regular bass. As I was choosing an instrument I had a moment of self-realisation - I am lousy at picking up chord changes on the fly. I often drop out of the play-along as I cannot follow the chords, and often do it by watching other peoples fingers.

So I vowed that I will not buy a bass ukulele until I get significantly better at following chord sequences on uke/guitar. How I make that journey I do not know. I will be looking for tips in this thread!

[Dad3353]

18 minutes ago, Nail Soup said:

...So I vowed that I will not buy a bass ukulele until I get significantly better at following chord sequences on uke/guitar. How I make that journey I do not know. I will be looking for tips in this thread!

One thing to realise is that it's not always essential for the bass to follow each and every chord change in a lot of songs; perhaps even more so in the folk idiom. There will be exceptions, I'm sure, but many chord changes are rather 'decorative', or bringing melody or counter-melody, rather than changing the fundamental structure of the song. As an example, I would cite the Ralph Patt 'Vanilla Chords' website, where the basic, stripped-down version of many tunes are laid out...

Jazz Web Page ...

OK, these are jazz tunes, but if we compare the usual 'Real Book rendering of most of these, we're looking at a Black Page of all sorts of altered chords, with substitutions galore and flattened wotsits, passing tones et al, bringing interest to many songs, but not really useful to the bass player. The Vanilla version gets back down to the chase.
Following the other players fingers is an excellent trick, but it's sometimes better to close one's eyes and listen to what's happening; after a while the 'patterns' become apparent, and next time round you'll not play that 'bum' note, but the simple, basic note that the song needs. At worst, it's OK to not play for a verse (maybe the first..?) and join in once it's been round one time, which will add 'beef' to it when the bass is added. It's OK to drop out for a spell, too. There are no rules saying that you have to play all of the time..! 

Hope this helps. 

Edited July 19, 2020 by Dad3353

[4000]

3 hours ago, julietgreen said:

I have great admiration for rhythm section musicians who can jam. As a sax player, I can usually join in because it's melody and improvisation and I can hear the tonality but the actual chords are not crucial. I don't have the nerve to do that as a bassist. How do you do it? Have you played so much you know the repertoire? Do you know standard chord sequences? Do you hear the chords when you hear a piece of music? Are you really clever? All of the above?

Obviously, I can do it with things like the blues, but otherwise, do I just have a lot of homework to do?

If you can do it on one instrument surely you can do it on another? Ok, the role is theoretically different, but it’s just notes after all, they’re no different.

One of the guys in our band (the other main songwriter) can’t jam at all. He writes great songs, writes great parts for various instruments that he plays, sings, but start jamming - even something really simple - and he just freezes and has no idea what to do. It baffles me. Thankfully it’s irrelevant to the band!

[SpondonBassed]

It needs saying that your rhythmic contribution can help a lot.  People will forgive a few ill chosen notes from time to time as long as you can keep the drive in your playing.

As Nail Soup says, looking at the guitarist's fretboard helps identify chords.

Edited July 19, 2020 by SpondonBassed

[fretmeister]

I always ask what key it’s in.

Then I also remember that quick passing notes are largely ignored and just play what I feel like.

[lowdown]

For me personally, one part of it is through years of experience. Playing and remembering hundreds and hundreds of tunes during that time (lots of similar chord structures/changes/form etc).

But probably the biggest factor for me is: I have very good relevant pitch. I can hear/recognise chords and intervals easily/quickly.

You will probably find that there are many on here who are the same,

 

 

Edited July 19, 2020 by lowdown

[Geek99]

@julietgreen there’s a good Ed Friedland book called “Bass improvisation” that you might find helpful (but it won’t develop your “ear for chords” that as @lowdown suggests is just experience )

[ahpook]

When I do jam with people it's largely familiarity with what 'goes' with certain chords and progressions that helps me.

I don't think I can recognise intervals and chords that easily, but as has been mentioned above, I watch what the other folks are doing and try to remember that a  jam isn't about showing off how good you are, it's about playing together, so if you're keeping it simple but still taking part you're still jamming. Nowt wrong with roots and simple stuff whist you get into what's going on.

Also I'm never afraid to ask what people are playing either. It's not a competition, it's collaboration.

[Nail Soup]

52 minutes ago, SpondonBassed said:

As Nail Soup says, looking at the guitarist's fretboard helps identify chords.

There's often someone who is helpful enough, when they realise I'm looking, to face the fretboard in my direction.

[casapete]

38 minutes ago, lowdown said:

For me personally, one part of it is through years of experience. Playing and remembering hundreds and hundreds of tunes during that time (lots of similar chord structures/changes/form etc).

But probably the biggest factor for me is: I have very good relevant pitch. I can hear/recognise chords and intervals easily/quickly.

You will probably find that there are many on here who are the same

Exactly this ^^^ for me too. I also play a bit of piano and guitar as well, so came from a chord oriented background which I guess must have helped. As has already been mentioned, learning to recognise certain progressions in songs comes with experience over a few years - I'm 62 and am still learning though!

Personally I've always found that my love of popular music from say the 1950's onwards has been of immeasurable help to me in so many gigging situations. I listen to the radio as often as possible, which works as a kind of subliminal revision that somehow seeps into my memory. Must admit some of the recent styles and sounds of top 40 stuff do leave me struggling, but you never know if the situation might arise when you need to know a song, or at least have a good stab at it!

[musicbassman]

40 minutes ago, lowdown said:

But probably the biggest factor for me is: I have very good relevant pitch. I can hear/recognise chords and intervals easily/quickly.

This absolutely.

Once you can 'hear' intervals then you'll soon learn to recognise chords - majors, minors 6ths, maj7ths, sus chords etc......

I remember the sheer delight I felt soon after I started playing (1968/9) when I learnt to reliably recognise a 5th !  It all seems so obvious now.

And this is the bassline I memorised the sound of it from:

 

 

[SpondonBassed]

16 minutes ago, Geek99 said:

@julietgreen there’s a good Ed Friedland book called “Bass improvisation” that you might find helpful (but it won’t develop your “ear for chords” that as @lowdown suggests is just experience )

Yes.  Getting your ear in takes a little time but it comes with perseverance.

Taking breaks is quite important too.  If you cram, your brain doesn't have time to digest quite as well as it might and you don't get enjoyment out of it.  If you aren't enjoying it, it shows.

[julietgreen]

On 19/07/2020 at 17:09, 4000 said:

If you can do it on one instrument surely you can do it on another? Ok, the role is theoretically different, but it’s just notes after all, they’re no different.

One of the guys in our band (the other main songwriter) can’t jam at all. He writes great songs, writes great parts for various instruments that he plays, sings, but start jamming - even something really simple - and he just freezes and has no idea what to do. It baffles me. Thankfully it’s irrelevant to the band!

Nope. It's very different in my mind because the sax can noodle wherever. If I play a 'bum' note, it's quickly resolved into something less bum. But I feel the bass player needs to lay down the correct chords for the rest of the band. From the answers in this thread, it seems that it's something that comes with practice playing with and to other musicians without having the sheets available. I need to just work up the nerve.

[Dad3353]

17 minutes ago, julietgreen said:

...If I play a 'bum' note, it's quickly resolved into something less bum...

From this perspective, there is, indeed, no real (as opposed to 'perceived'...) difference; one is only ever half-a-tone away from a musically-valid note. A duff note on the bass is quickly resolved by hammering or sliding up or down a fret (or semi-tone, if fretless...) and it'll fit, for sure. The rhythm has to be spot on, I'd agree, but that's easy on bass, too, as playing at high speed is seldom a requirement, and is, more often than not, even detrimental. Worst case is a couple of beats of sustained previous note, silence, or indeterminate 'plunk plunk' 'ghosted' notes to maintain timing but without any discernable tone.
It's also 'only the bass', so it doesn't bring plagues of locusts if there's a duff note or two in the evening's set. If, on the other hand, the evening consists of only duff notes, it's the others fault for not giving you the correct score sheets. 

[Dan Dare]

It can be tricky as a melody instrument player to work out chords/structure in the early stages. If you are used to playing linearly, you have to teach yourself to think more structurally. It doesn't take long for it to become second nature if, as I'm sure you do, you have an ear. It's so long ago (50 years) that I started learning that I can't remember how long it took to become proficient at it. I started out playing the violin/fiddle and was drawn to the bass (possibly because my pals needed a bass player in their band - isn't that the reason many of us start?). One thing I found very helpful was to learn some piano and guitar. Not to any standard - I wouldn't dream of playing either in public - but it got me thinking in the right way and realising how everything fitted together. Some theory lessons helped a lot, too.

[Woodinblack]

2 hours ago, julietgreen said:

Nope. It's very different in my mind because the sax can noodle wherever. If I play a 'bum' note, it's quickly resolved into something less bum. But I feel the bass player needs to lay down the correct chords for the rest of the band.

No, if you play a bum note, you just glare at the guitarist and roll your eyes. Problem solved

[Geek99]

Or claim “it’s just jazz/blues/country/a #17th” followed by “don’t you know anything ? {geetard}” ... final insult optional 

Edited July 21, 2020 by Geek99

[Nicko]

I cheat.  Theres two ways to get a bass line to fit an unknown chord sequence.  One is to play passing notes until you actually hot a chord tone - its a bit risky but if your ear is good you can get away with it.  Essentially you make the non chord tones seem like you meant them until you get to the right place.  Normally you need some idea of the key to do it.

The other much easier way is to watch the guitarist and follow his chords.  I don't necessarily know instantly what notes are in the chord but I imagine the chord overlaid on my bass and pick notes from it.

Edited July 22, 2020 by Nicko

[lownote]

On 19/07/2020 at 18:07, Geek99 said:

@julietgreen there’s a good Ed Friedland book called “Bass improvisation” that you might find helpful (but it won’t develop your “ear for chords” that as @lowdown suggests is just experience )

Just bought this at your behest.  Way, way over my head.  What are those little things like tadpoles on multiple washing lines?  If anyone wants it off me they're welcome.

[Geek99]

Send it back  - what’s the matter ? Too “notey” for you ?

[knirirr]

2 hours ago, Nicko said:

One is to play passing notes until you actually hot a chord tone - its a bit risky but if your ear is good you can get away with it.  Essentially you make the non chord tones seem like you meant them until you get to the right place.  Normally you need some idea of the key to do it.

That is one way to get away with it which I will admit to having used on various occasions.
Usually the general public don't seem to notice a thing and so it works quite well, but there's always a fear that there's someone in the audience who is better than me (quite a large pool from which to draw) who will spot it.