Is having a thorough formal music training a barrier to being inventive?

[Barking Spiders]

Came across a YT thread on how much music theory did The Beatles have. I don't know the answer to this but I've known several fine classically trained players who struggled at improvising or making up their own tunes although they could reel off a violin/piano concerto etc at the drop of a hat. I will say  the most inventive stuff I've heard is by people who break the rules and possibly don't know a lot of theory. Any strongly worded  opinions on the matter?😉

[oldslapper]

Understatement Alert::

This subject can illicit some strong opinions.

A formal music education should not be a barrier to creativity, in fact (in my experience) it can enhance the capacity for creativity. Even a small amount of theory knowledge. 

But what do I know. 😎

[Owen]

53 minutes ago, Barking Spiders said:

Came across a YT thread on how much music theory did The Beatles have. I don't know the answer to this but I've known several fine classically trained players who struggled at improvising or making up their own tunes although they could reel off a violin/piano concerto etc at the drop of a hat. I will say  the most inventive stuff I've heard is by people who break the rules and possibly don't know a lot of theory. Any strongly worded  opinions on the matter?😉

The Beatles had George Martin. Ha had enough for all of them. Is it better? No. Does it hurt? No. 

[ahpook]

This isn't going to end well.

Edited July 22, 2020 by ahpook

[chris_b]

Didn't hurt Mozart.

[Dad3353]

Is having a thorough formal music training a barrier to being inventive?

No. 

[paul_c2]

1 hour ago, Barking Spiders said:

I've known several fine classically trained players who struggled at improvising or making up their own tunes 

I've known several classically trained players who are good at improvising. And I know several classically trained players who can't play a piano/violin concerto. And several non-classically trained musicians who are terrible at improvising.

The point being, I don't think they're necessarily related. You might chance upon a co-factor if you analyse enough statistics, but its more a case of "you are what you learn/practise". In that, if someone is using their ear (relatively) more than eg someone sight reading, they'll get better at that particular aspect of music. And if someone is playing from memory, or has to learn tunes to perform, they'll get good at it. And......if someone never reads music, they will struggle to sight read.

Its the same for improvising too.

I know what you mean about 'classically trained' musicians though, for a long time the "pathway" a lot of formally trained musicians went down, didn't include improvisation until much later on, like Grade 6 and beyond. I think that was just a historical thing though, which had merit in the past but in the days of YouTube and improved all-round education of music teachers, is probably not true any more.

If we can conclude anything from it, its that learning a broad range of skills rather than narrowly focusing on one or two aspects, is better.

[Grahambythesea]

Depends on your creativity. Formal training didn’t hold Bach back or lack of it get in Jamie Cullum’s. 

[Woodinblack]

Your creativity is your creativity. Formal training gives you other options and opens your eyes to other ways of doing things but doesn't replace creativity. 

So no, if you are inventive, a formal education will help. If you aren't, it won't.

[Drax]

The short answer is a fat No - but there is a small something in where you're coming from. The traditional classical route prizes replication over composition, and less with improvisation. 

Worth saying this isn't some high horse that 'non trained' musicians get to look down on classical players from, many people in covers bands can't write or improvise either - and theres nothing wrong with that.

[oldslapper]

8 replies in and this thread has already descended into complete and utter reasonableness. 

[Nail Soup]

I think creative people use whatever they have to hand. That could be formal training, or it could be a complete ignorance of formal learning. Both work in the right hands.

Some untrained creatives are worried that they may lose the ability if they look under the hood. That's a fair concern in my book...... I've no issues with someone avoiding formal learning for that reason.

 

 

[ead]

21 minutes ago, oldslapper said:

8 replies in and this thread has already descended into complete and utter reasonableness. 

...but don't mention this to Jeff Berlin...

[Triumph_Rock]

Quite an interesting read, this ere thread. As somebody that was classically trained in Trombone at school I have a keen interest on this. I've been toying with the idea of which route to go down, debating it in my head, as somebody that has just picked up a bass guitar. Do I go down the play by ear root, or sight reading root? ( rhetorical question ).

I mean being able to sight read, and if you are a good to very good sight reader, you should be able to put the notation of any style of music in front of you and play.

Do I think it will hinder creativity? Yes/No. I think creativity is a very personal thing, and whilst theory might help one person, it might hinder another. I think it all comes down to if the person is an inspired type. And musical theory is huge, its not just being able to read musical notation. Some people might find a theory like playing root notes and 5th notes around the drummers snare drum, symbol or hi-hat , very helpful, other might find it a burden! 

David

[Al Krow]

It's no more a barrier to being musically creative, than being able to read and write is to telling stories. 

[ead]

4 minutes ago, Triumph_Rock said:

Quite an interesting read, this ere thread. As somebody that was classically trained in Trombone at school I have a keen interest on this. I've been toying with the idea of which route to go down, debating it in my head, as somebody that has just picked up a bass guitar. Do I go down the play by ear root, or sight reading root? ( rhetorical question ).

I mean being able to sight read, and if you are a good to very good sight reader, you should be able to put the notation of any style of music in front of you and play.

Do I think it will hinder creativity? Yes/No. I think creativity is a very personal thing, and whilst theory might help one person, it might hinder another. I think it all comes down to if the person is an inspired type. And musical theory is huge, its not just being able to read musical notation. Some people might find a theory like playing root notes and 5th notes around the drummers snare drum, symbol or hi-hat , very helpful, other might find it a burden! 

David

Interesting point.  I learned violin at school and went pretty much right through the grades (stopped after VII when I discovered rugby and lady peeps).  What I find most odd is that reading the treble clef is second nature my brain really struggles to read the bass clef.  I have no idea why but it's very annoying.

[Drax]

4 minutes ago, Nail Soup said:

Some untrained creatives are worried that they may lose the ability if they look under the hood. That's a fair concern in my book...... I've no issues with someone avoiding formal learning for that reason.

Ah man that's some bonkers conspiracy theory stuff right there. Very little in life where it's going to hurt you to know more - other than maybe how sausages are made. 

[Triumph_Rock]

9 minutes ago, ead said:

Interesting point.  I learned violin at school and went pretty much right through the grades (stopped after VII when I discovered rugby and lady peeps).  What I find most odd is that reading the treble clef is second nature my brain really struggles to read the bass clef.  I have no idea why but it's very annoying.

Good point about the difference, I haven't read music for a very long time, so I'm rusty. Hopefully if I learn the bass clef, my past experience at school wont hinder me.

[oldslapper]

3 minutes ago, Drax said:Very little in life where it's going to hurt you to know more - other than maybe how sausages are made. 

You couldn’t think of a Würst example

[mcnach]

2 hours ago, oldslapper said:

Understatement Alert::

This subject can illicit some strong opinions.

A formal music education should not be a barrier to creativity, in fact (in my experience) it can enhance the capacity for creativity. Even a small amount of theory knowledge. 

But what do I know. 😎

 

This.

If anything, music education should give people tools to better use their creativity. 

[Mykesbass]

3 hours ago, Barking Spiders said:

Came across a YT thread on how much music theory did The Beatles have. I don't know the answer to this 

Probably not very much. Just think how good they would have been 

[Dirty Soul]

2 hours ago, ead said:

Interesting point.  I learned violin at school and went pretty much right through the grades (stopped after VII when I discovered rugby and lady peeps).  What I find most odd is that reading the treble clef is second nature my brain really struggles to read the bass clef.  I have no idea why but it's very annoying.

Also trained in the violin and I have exactly the same issue with treble/bass clef. Technically I’ve probably been reading bass clef for longer as I only played violin for 7 years! 

[Lozz196]

I’d say it can be, much the same way as people who train in specific disciplines of martial arts - I’ve seen a good few over the years take beatings from people with no specific skills other than just being hard. Sometimes skills and specialism can regiment the mind to only behave in certain ways and not to think outside the box. Not all the time mind, but I’m sure it can happen in many fields as well as music and martial arts.

[Guest]

I've had formal music training (not on bass) and I have zero creativity.  I can play a tune as written, or mimic another player on a recording with the best of them, but come up with my own bassline or solo? Nope, just doesn't  happen for me.

Best I can manage is a few widdly fills or a bit of walking, but even much of that is simply conforming to how I was taught as a sprog.

I see little evidence of any real correlation in either direction.

Edited July 22, 2020 by Bassfinger

[odysseus]

No. People are creative or they're not.  Also, some people see music theory as 'rules'. I'd say it's more scaffolding - you can still hang upside down off the end of it with your undies on your head if you so desire.  😁