Is having a thorough formal music training a barrier to being inventive?

[fretmeister]

3 minutes ago, Dad3353 said:

You do realise that I'm a drummer, don't you..? 

...

 

Dad go smash!

(why is there no crayon font on here?)

 

 

[EliasMooseblaster]

On 24/07/2020 at 10:03, Stub Mandrel said:

Sorry the point is a trained musician is unlikely to come up with such a thing, although doubt more radical composers try such things all the time.

Yeah, there were a few who virtually made it their raison d'etre - Scriabin in particular was a bugger for it.

[peteb]

3 minutes ago, tinyd said:

I read @Bilbo's point as being that "stagecraft" is very hard to define, and it depends on the musician/audience/genre. Some musicians engage with the audience entirely through the music itself, whereas others do it in other ways as well. If you went to a Miles Davis gig in the 60s expecting banter, dance moves and a light show you'd have been pretty disappointed

But Miles had a very definite stage presence that people wanted to buy into. That's kinda the point...! 

3 minutes ago, fretmeister said:

I think it's unlikely that Beethoven / Mozart / Bach etc etc could have composed what they did without excellent musical knowledge.

I think it equally unlikely that a Beethoven level of knowledge would have actively prevented Francis Rossi writing Quo songs.

 

 

I'm not so sure about that. 

If Rossi had a deeply profound knowledge of advanced musical theory, would be have able to write such convincing barroom boogie ditties, or would they have come across as contrived??  

[Bilbo]

Musicians do a lot of things and stagecraft is not necessary in all situations; pit orchestra, big band, string quartet, orchestra, studio work etc etc. As tinyd said, most Jazz bands don't do stagecraft (some do). I am also not entirely sure that the Dave Lee Roth's of this world can be taught what they have. It's as much about their personality as it is about their 'craft'. Maybe that's not fair. I don't know.

[oldslapper]

29 minutes ago, adamg67 said:

I found the fourth chord the other day, turned out it had been down the back of the sofa all the time!

Can I have it when you’ve finished with it please? I can arrange a courier. 🤓

[peteb]

5 minutes ago, Bilbo said:

Musicians do a lot of things and stagecraft is not necessary in all situations; pit orchestra, big band, string quartet, orchestra, studio work etc etc. As tinyd said, most Jazz bands don't do stagecraft (some do). I am also not entirely sure that the Dave Lee Roth's of this world can be taught what they have. It's as much about their personality as it is about their 'craft'. Maybe that's not fair. I don't know.

There are certain situations where musicians are not actually on a stage, so performance is not such an important factor (although in many situations I'm sure that it helps). 

As far as the DLRs of this world - obviously they generally have a larger than life personality to start with, but they really do develop their craft. I can tell you that for sure... 

Edited July 28, 2020 by peteb

[tinyd]

7 minutes ago, peteb said:

But Miles had a very definite stage presence that people wanted to buy into. That's kinda the point...! 

He had an "anti presence" in that he actively refused to engage with the audience outside of playing the music, but this came about because he was (to put it mildly) uncomfortable with the expectation at the time that black performers were expected to smile etc. to gain acceptance with white audiences, and he thought his music should speak for itself. The fact that other people later bought into this and identified it as "a thing" is a kind of stagecraft-after-the-fact I guess.

Anyway, I'm not sure what my point is, but it's an interesting discussion
 

[fretmeister]

19 minutes ago, peteb said:

But Miles had a very definite stage presence that people wanted to buy into. That's kinda the point...! 

I'm not so sure about that. 

If Rossi had a deeply profound knowledge of advanced musical theory, would be have able to write such convincing barroom boogie ditties, or would they have come across as contrived??  

Alex Skolnick doesn't sound contrived when he moves from Metal to Jazz at will. Paul Gilbert moves genres without that problem. 

There's no reason it should sound contrived. 

[MacDaddy]

23 minutes ago, peteb said:

But Miles had a very definite stage presence that people wanted to buy into. That's kinda the point...! 

I'm not so sure about that. 

If Rossi had a deeply profound knowledge of advanced musical theory, would be have able to write such convincing barroom boogie ditties, or would they have come across as contrived??  

Does Beethoven's boogie woogie sound contrived? 

(Piano Sonata No. 32, 2nd movement, or just Google 'Beethoven boogie woogie')

[peteb]

28 minutes ago, fretmeister said:

Alex Skolnick doesn't sound contrived when he moves from Metal to Jazz at will. Paul Gilbert moves genres without that problem. 

There's no reason it should sound contrived. 

But that's a different thing! Gilbert was a music school kid and Skolnick had a decent level of musical training, including being taught by Joe Satriani. Both are trained musicians who happened to grow up loving heavy metal and other types of classic rock. Neither of them are Ludwig van Beethoven and nor have they have been associated with anything as basic as Status Quo.

On the other hand, Rossi served his apprenticeship playing old time rock and roll in British holiday camps in the 60s and made his mark writing pretty basic 12 bars. I would say that is a considerably different arena to that inhabited by Gilbert & Skolnick.  

Edited July 28, 2020 by peteb

[adamg67]

32 minutes ago, peteb said:

On the other hand, Rossi served his apprenticeship playing old time rock and roll in British holiday camps in the 60s and made his mark writing pretty basic 12 bars. I would say that is a considerably different arena to that inhabited by Gilbert & Skolnick.  

He also played trumpet in the school orchestra, apparently, so although he wasn't a music school kid, he was a school music kid.

[fretmeister]

41 minutes ago, peteb said:

But that's a different thing! Gilbert was a music school kid and Skolnick had a decent level of musical training, including being taught by Joe Satriani. Both are trained musicians who happened to grow up loving heavy metal and other types of classic rock. Neither of them are Ludwig van Beethoven and nor have they have been associated with anything as basic as Status Quo.

On the other hand, Rossi served his apprenticeship playing old time rock and roll in British holiday camps in the 60s and made his mark writing pretty basic 12 bars. I would say that is a considerably different arena to that inhabited by Gilbert & Skolnick.  

So you're saying he managed to play in the MOST contrived environment in the universe - a holiday camp - and not sound contrived on his own stuff.

 

Flea is a phenomenal trumpet player. Yet his funky rock stuff does't sound contrived either.

[adamg67]

1 hour ago, peteb said:

A strange but noble body of men...! 

I don't think that's how you spell it?

[ahpook]

1 hour ago, adamg67 said:

I found the fourth chord the other day, turned out it had been down the back of the sofa all the time!

Hang on, I think that's the lost chord isn't it ?

Best give the Moody Blues a shout

[adamg67]

Just now, ahpook said:

Hang on, I think that's the lost chord isn't it ?

Best give the Moody Blues a shout

But if I've found it, it can't be the lost chord?

[peteb]

5 minutes ago, fretmeister said:

So you're saying he managed to play in the MOST contrived environment in the universe - a holiday camp - and not sound contrived on his own stuff.

 

No, I'm saying that apart from playing trumpet in the school orchestra, he didn't have the level of technical proficiency or musical training of Paul Gilbert or Alex Skolnick and as far as I am aware, Ludwig van Beethoven didn't write "Roll Over Lay Down" (although there may be a clip of an early performance from 1796 on YouTube)...! 

[lowdown]

2 hours ago, adamg67 said:

I found the fourth chord the other day, turned out it had been down the back of the sofa all the time!

Your fourth chord was lost and out of use for a while...then found...and then used again ?

So, it was just suspended for a while, yes?

[fretmeister]

4 minutes ago, peteb said:

No, I'm saying that apart from playing trumpet in the school orchestra, he didn't have the level of technical proficiency or musical training of Paul Gilbert or Alex Skolnick and as far as I am aware, Ludwig van Beethoven didn't write "Roll Over Lay Down" (although there may be a clip of an early performance from 1796 on YouTube)...! 

You've moved the goalposts a bit there.

Rossi (as far as I know) doesn't have the skills to write a symphony.

Beethoven clearly had the skills to write anything he wanted to.

 

You have argued that Beethoven's attempts at writing Quo type tunes would have sounded contrived. You have not explained why. I have provided examples of genre hopping artists that do not sound contrived. You have not provided examples of genre hopping artists that do.

 

"Contrived" does not mean 'not able to write it' it just means you didn't like it from an artistic point of view. That's fine, that's just taste. But that's not the same as not being capable of writing the tune in the first place.

 

"Authenticity" is about the biggest load of codswallop in music. It's either a good tune to the individual listener or it isn't. Academic knowledge of music can't hinder. It's not the same as art. The artistic output still requires something more.

 

[ahpook]

8 minutes ago, adamg67 said:

But if I've found it, it can't be the lost chord?

For  you, no....but if the Moodies don't know they'll be wasting their time, and they're not getting any younger.

[paul_c2]

There are several aspects of playing music:

* stage presence
* 'inventiveness' (for want of a better word, but its the OP title)
* music theory knowledge
* (technical) ability to play (in time, in tune, appropriate phrasing/dynamics/timbre etc etc)
* other aspects too

As you learn (and everyone should be learning, all the time) you should IMHO develop well-rounded skills which have all the aspects as listed above. You could focus on one aspect over another if you wanted to, but you won't be well-rounded then.

For a lot of musical situations, there is clearly a point at which you have the required aspects to the required level, ie its "enough". For example, if you were to sit a Grade 1 Piano exam, you don't need to be Grade 8 standard. Or, if you were to do a reading gig, you don't need much inventiveness. Or if you were to do a studio session, you don't need stage presence, etc.

I don't think any one of the aspects interferes with another, except possibly in a synergistic way.

[oldslapper]

1 hour ago, lowdown said:

Your fourth chord was lost and out of use for a while...then found...and then used again ?

So, it was just suspended for a while, yes?

That’s a welcome tonic....😎
 

(One for you stifled, starchy non creatives) 🤡

Edited July 28, 2020 by oldslapper

[Stub Mandrel]

35 minutes ago, adamg67 said:

But if I've found it, it can't be the lost chord?

THCPKTLC

But I think thisis going spare now, so you could use it?

[peteb]

51 minutes ago, fretmeister said:

You've moved the goalposts a bit there.

Rossi (as far as I know) doesn't have the skills to write a symphony.

Beethoven clearly had the skills to write anything he wanted to.

 

You have argued that Beethoven's attempts at writing Quo type tunes would have sounded contrived. You have not explained why. I have provided examples of genre hopping artists that do not sound contrived. You have not provided examples of genre hopping artists that do.

 

"Contrived" does not mean 'not able to write it' it just means you didn't like it from an artistic point of view. That's fine, that's just taste. But that's not the same as not being capable of writing the tune in the first place.

 

"Authenticity" is about the biggest load of codswallop in music. It's either a good tune to the individual listener or it isn't. Academic knowledge of music can't hinder. It's not the same as art. The artistic output still requires something more.

 

To be honest, I don’t think that I have moved the goalposts. Possibly you have stretched my argument to breaking point with distractions about Paul Gilbert, etc but the central point remains. I am not doubting that songwriters can apply their craft across different genres, but the composer (widely accepted as a genius) of some of the most renowned symphonies in history would not have the slightest interest in knocking out a catchy 12 bar and it would be a waste of his immense talent to do so. Even if he fancied having a go for the money, he would come short as he would not have grown up idolising Chuck Berry, Muddy Waters and the Beatles nor would he have lived a life of sweaty pub gigs, the resulting dubious romantic encounters and the endless motorway miles that helped shaped what made Quo connect to a mass audience, mainly made up of teenage boys looking for a release from their daily frustrations.

I disagree about "authenticity" being “the biggest load of codswallop in music”. You have to be careful here, otherwise you can go down several rabbit holes of nonsense about whether you are the right race or sex to play a particular type of music. But at a minimum you to have a genuine understanding of the genre and preferably a connection to it. Think of why Guns n’Roses exploded like they did and their remaining appeal, or why Thin Lizzy were such a great rock and roll band in the 70s and such a mediocre metal / AOR band in the 80s. Equally, I agree that "contrived" does not mean 'not able to write it', but it does mean not being able to do so convincingly. 

[paul_c2]

6 minutes ago, peteb said:

 I am not doubting that songwriters can apply their craft across different genres, but the composer (widely accepted as a genius) of some of the most renowned symphonies in history would not have the slightest interest in knocking out a catchy 12 bar and it would be a waste of his immense talent to do so.

 

But historically, that is exactly what happened. The likes of Beethoven, Mozart etc were prolific writers and in addition to big symphonies, wrote lots of music, some much shorter and simpler, also in what you'd call the historical equivalent of different genres (eg adagio, waltz, minuet, gigue)

[peteb]

9 minutes ago, paul_c2 said:

But historically, that is exactly what happened. The likes of Beethoven, Mozart etc were prolific writers and in addition to big symphonies, wrote lots of music, some much shorter and simpler, also in what you'd call the historical equivalent of different genres (eg adagio, waltz, minuet, gigue)

I think that you have to be careful looking for similarities across the centuries. The great composers would often write on commission and they didn't just write grand symphonies. They would write what there was a demand for (but all within a broad classical tradition), but they would not deign to write certain types of 'low' or folk type music, which they thought below them and would not please their wealthy patrons or high brow society audience.

I believe that the possible exception was Mozart, who liked to upset the more pompous sections of society (but I may have  just got that from Amadeus)... 

Edited July 28, 2020 by peteb