Vintage Fenders

[Woodinblack]

52 minutes ago, Dad3353 said:

 

Such proof is not asked when buying from other EU countries, it's simply assumed. No receipts to produce; VAT just doesn't apply to private s/h sales, s'all. 

 

Such proof is not needed in private sales here either - this was shop sales not private sales.

[Burns-bass]

5 hours ago, ossyrocks said:

So, what will the buyer end up actually paying with 24% buyers premium + VAT? Is that VAT on the buyers premium, or VAT on £2800 + 24%? 
Rob

It’s VAT on top of the auctioneers commission.

[tauzero]

5 hours ago, Richard R said:

24% Buyer's Premium! That's quite a profit for the auction house. 

 

There will also be a seller's premium, typically about the same as the buyer's premium.

[wateroftyne]

1 hour ago, tauzero said:

 

There will also be a seller's premium, typically about the same as the buyer's premium.

 

There's usually only a buyer's premium, which is - unlike the hammer price - is subject to VAT.

[Burns-bass]

26 minutes ago, wateroftyne said:

 

There's usually only a buyer's premium, which is - unlike the hammer price - is subject to VAT.

I think he means that the seller has to pay a premium to the auction house for selling their bass (which they do). This means (when combined with the buyers premium) auction houses pull in about 50% of the sale price of every item. 

[wateroftyne]

Just now, Burns-bass said:

I think he means that the seller has to pay a premium to the auction house for selling their bass (which they do). This means (when combined with the buyers premium) auction houses pull in about 50% of the sale price of every item. 

Oh, I see.

[MM Stingray 62]

That’s right it’s usually 15-20% from the seller and the same from the buyer. Some auction houses are 25% though.

[Reggaebass]

So basically have I got my maths right on this ?

bass sold for               £2800

buyer premium 24%   £  672

vat on £672                £  134.40

                   Total.        £3606.40

it also says lots purchased online have an additional charge of the hammer price 4.95 plus vat 

[Burns-bass]

1 hour ago, Reggaebass said:

So basically have I got my maths right on this ?

bass sold for               £2800

buyer premium 24%   £  672

vat on £672                £  134.40

                   Total.        £3606.40

it also says lots purchased online have an additional charge of the hammer price 4.95 plus vat 

Yeah that’s right. When you go to the sale room you’ll often see people with a calculator (that’s what I did when I used to bid).

[Reggaebass]

1 minute ago, Burns-bass said:

Yeah that’s right. When you go to the sale room you’ll often see people with a calculator (that’s what I did when I used to bid).

Thanks 👍

[Deedee]

Blimey! I don’t think I’ll be frequenting any auctions any time soon 🤑🤑🤑

[mowf]

2 hours ago, Reggaebass said:

So basically have I got my maths right on this ?

bass sold for               £2800

buyer premium 24%   £  672

vat on £672                £  134.40

                   Total.        £3606.40

it also says lots purchased online have an additional charge of the hammer price 4.95 plus vat 

Sooo, definitely not a bargain but, perhaps not a terrible price for a decent ‘71P?

[tauzero]

33 minutes ago, Burns-bass said:

I think he means that the seller has to pay a premium to the auction house for selling their bass (which they do). This means (when combined with the buyers premium) auction houses pull in about 50% of the sale price of every item. 

 

That's right, the seller gets 75-85% of the hammer price, the buyer pays 115-125% of the hammer price (plus VAT on the bit over 100%) and the auction house gets the 30-50%.

[briansbrew]

4 minutes ago, tauzero said:

 

That's right, the seller gets 75-85% of the hammer price, the buyer pays 115-125% of the hammer price (plus VAT on the bit over 100%) and the auction house gets the 30-50%.

Win win all round for the auction house..

[Waddo Soqable]

That's what I call ripping the plss.... 

[Burns-bass]

8 hours ago, Waddo Soqable said:

That's what I call ripping the plss.... 

To be fair, auction houses have large overheads. Nobody is earning millions.

[Reggaebass]

10 hours ago, mowf said:

Sooo, definitely not a bargain but, perhaps not a terrible price for a decent ‘71P?

Yeah, as long as there’s no unsuspecting surprises I suppose it’s in the right ballpark for a decent one 

[Velarian]

This auction example makes me wonder why it’s worth selling at auction at all. If buyers take into account the buyer’s premium plus VAT and end up paying a total price that represents the true value of the item, in this case £3,600, then the seller would net just under £2,300 after commission and VAT. £1,300 is quite a hefty hit to take on what might be achieved elsewhere. 

[ossyrocks]

1 hour ago, Velarian said:

This auction example makes me wonder why it’s worth selling at auction at all. If buyers take into account the buyer’s premium plus VAT and end up paying a total price that represents the true value of the item, in this case £3,600, then the seller would net just under £2,300 after commission and VAT. £1,300 is quite a hefty hit to take on what might be achieved elsewhere. 

That’s the bit I don’t get either. Maybe it was being sold by someone who it was left to after a death who doesn’t have a clue what to do with it.

[GuyR]

13 minutes ago, Velarian said:

This auction example makes me wonder why it’s worth selling at auction at all. If buyers take into account the buyer’s premium plus VAT and end up paying a total price that represents the true value of the item, in this case £3,600, then the seller would net just under £2,300 after commission and VAT. £1,300 is quite a hefty hit to take on what might be achieved elsewhere. 

You make an excellent point, and on the face of it, auction does seem an unattractive prospect, but the margin between the “true value” of the item as you correctly describe it, and the net proceeds received by the seller, is in the same region as if you sell to a dealer, in my experience.
As a seller, some of the attractions in selling at auction are:

Convenience- Absolutely no need for any contact with the buying public. 
Transparency- The price is set by demand in a public setting, so if selling on behalf of a deceased estate for example, beneficiaries cannot quibble.

Opportunity for a very good outcome - auction lots regularly sell well above the guide prices. If buyers have travelled and the instrument is a good or rare example, they may well make several bids past their original intended limit, rather than go home empty handed. Buyers will also often go home with an instrument other than the one they came to buy, increasing the price of their second choice instrument.

Buyers can very much get caught up in the moment. In a recent GH auction, a refin 65 Strat was sold at £15k before premium or £18900 total, which is £5400 above what I was offered a original finish example for a few weeks ago. Conversely, I remember GH selling a Rick turner renaissance bass a few years ago for circa £500, and as I have mentioned before, I have bought a very original 66 Telecaster there for £5500 including commission.

I do think for sellers of quality vintage kit, a good dealer such as bass gallery or ATB, selling on consignment at 15% commission is the sweet spot. I have certainly found it so.

In my opinion, auction is a great venue to buy, but you need confidence in your ability to make a judgement as it’s not a retail environment. Bargains are also fewer these days. 

 

 

[Velarian]

2 hours ago, GuyR said:

You make an excellent point, and on the face of it, auction does seem an unattractive prospect, but the margin between the “true value” of the item as you correctly describe it, and the net proceeds received by the seller, is in the same region as if you sell to a dealer, in my experience.
As a seller, some of the attractions in selling at auction are:

Convenience- Absolutely no need for any contact with the buying public. 
Transparency- The price is set by demand in a public setting, so if selling on behalf of a deceased estate for example, beneficiaries cannot quibble.

Opportunity for a very good outcome - auction lots regularly sell well above the guide prices. If buyers have travelled and the instrument is a good or rare example, they may well make several bids past their original intended limit, rather than go home empty handed. Buyers will also often go home with an instrument other than the one they came to buy, increasing the price of their second choice instrument.

Buyers can very much get caught up in the moment. In a recent GH auction, a refin 65 Strat was sold at £15k before premium or £18900 total, which is £5400 above what I was offered a original finish example for a few weeks ago. Conversely, I remember GH selling a Rick turner renaissance bass a few years ago for circa £500, and as I have mentioned before, I have bought a very original 66 Telecaster there for £5500 including commission.

I do think for sellers of quality vintage kit, a good dealer such as bass gallery or ATB, selling on consignment at 15% commission is the sweet spot. I have certainly found it so.

In my opinion, auction is a great venue to buy, but you need confidence in your ability to make a judgement as it’s not a retail environment. Bargains are also fewer these days. 

 

 

All excellent points and I guess the deceased estate example is a relatively common scenario. I know I wouldn’t relish the hassle of selling my basses privately and my wife wouldn’t have a clue what to do when I’ve popped my clogs, so an auction would be a likely outcome.

[ossyrocks]

2 minutes ago, Velarian said:

All excellent points and I guess the deceased estate example is a relatively common scenario. I know I wouldn’t relish the hassle of selling my basses privately and my wife wouldn’t have a clue what to do when I’ve popped my clogs, so an auction would be a likely outcome.

 

My wife and I have had this conversation. I keep a spreadsheet of all my gear in our Onedrive. It has details, serial numbers, purchase price, current value and whether or not it's named on the house insurance. She's under instruction to contact Richard Henry (an old guitar dealer friend) and have him sell everything on consignment. She would get a good price for all of it with relatively little hassle. The only downside........she knows exactly what I've got, and exactly what it cost!

 

Rob

[Velarian]

Great idea. I’ll do something similar.

 

EDIT: P.S. can I have your P Bass? 😉

Edited April 8, 2023 by Velarian

[GuyR]

1 hour ago, ossyrocks said:

 

My wife and I have had this conversation. I keep a spreadsheet of all my gear in our Onedrive. It has details, serial numbers, purchase price, current value and whether or not it's named on the house insurance. She's under instruction to contact Richard Henry (an old guitar dealer friend) and have him sell everything on consignment. She would get a good price for all of it with relatively little hassle. The only downside........she knows exactly what I've got, and exactly what it cost!

 

Rob

The “purchase price” column strikes me as a potentially reckless indulgence. There is such a thing as too much information.

Edited April 8, 2023 by GuyR

[Reggaebass]

1 hour ago, ossyrocks said:

She's under instruction to contact Richard Henry (an old guitar dealer friend) and have him sell everything on consignment. She would get a good price for all of it with relatively little hassle

I was going to do something similar a while back but I thought better of it as she might help me along the way quicker than I anticipated 😁