Vintage Fenders

[rodney72a]

On 14/09/2023 at 13:55, Velarian said:

I’d looked at this auction beforehand and whilst I didn’t see anything I would bid on, this 57 P Bass caught my eye. I went back just now to check what happened and the hammer price was £8.5k. With buyers premium and VAT that’s just shy of £10,750. Not too bad on face of it and part of me now regret not having a pop at it. 
 

https://www.guitar-auctions.co.uk/sale/198/21/1957-Fender-Precision-Bass-guitar-made-in-USA

 

 

Now at Andy Baxter's for £21,500.

 

https://www.andybaxterbass.com/collections/bass-guitars/products/1957-fender-precision-bass-2-tone-sunburst-4

Edited October 17, 2023 by rodney72a

[Velarian]

6 hours ago, rodney72a said:

 

Now at Andy Baxter's for £21,500.

 

https://www.andybaxterbass.com/collections/bass-guitars/products/1957-fender-precision-bass-2-tone-sunburst-4

Interesting. So, double the money then. 
 

I wouldn’t be surprised if the Scarborough bass turns up there as well in a few weeks.

[ped]

6 hours ago, rodney72a said:

 

Now at Andy Baxter's for £21,500.

 

https://www.andybaxterbass.com/collections/bass-guitars/products/1957-fender-precision-bass-2-tone-sunburst-4

We’ll colour me surprised 🙄

[OliverBlackman]

3 hours ago, ped said:

We’ll colour me surprised 🙄

We all had the chance to bid on it…

 

One thing is for sure, there’s room for a haggle! I’d be willing to pay more 1 because he’s certified it and 2 I could try it before committing to purchase. Just not £10k more.

[Reggaebass]

On 13/10/2023 at 09:13, Wombat said:

Made it on to the pages of Bass Player Magazine…

https://www.guitarworld.com/news/lost-fender-precision-bass-auction

I didn’t see that Thanks , I’d like to see it all cleaned up and I think it will surface soon 

[rodney72a]

6 hours ago, ped said:

We’ll colour me surprised 🙄

 

It doesn't necessarily mean though that it was Andy Baxter who bought the bass at auction - it could have been a third party, now commissioning it with AB hoping for a profit. Nothing wrong with either scenario, of course.

 

On a side note, looking through my archives, this bass was in the Classifieds on here in 2014, so we all had our chance!

[Woodinblack]

8 hours ago, Velarian said:

Interesting. So, double the money then. 
 

I wouldn’t be surprised if the Scarborough bass turns up there as well in a few weeks.

 

Wow - do they really go for that? I mean it is an old lump of wood with strings on it.

Cant be that many stock broker walls surely?

[GuyR]

On 16/10/2023 at 19:06, SurroundedByManatees said:

Further chat before blocking:

 

 

A reputation arrives on foot, but leaves on a horse.

[rwillett]

15 hours ago, Woodinblack said:

 

Wow - do they really go for that? I mean it is an old lump of wood with strings on it.

Cant be that many stock broker walls surely?

Head out south west from London to Winchester and start counting big houses, or head to Blackheath in SE London and count the houses around the common and in the Cator Estate. I lived in Greenwich for 15 or so years and coached minis rugby at Blackheath RUFC, the car park on a Sunday morning had a lot of very upmarket cars, I managed to bring the average price down with my 59 Skoda Octavia

 

There are a lot of very, very wealthy people in London and surrounding areas. £2-£5M bonuses are not uncommon for the top. When you earn £750K + £2M bonus because you asset stripped a company, £20K for a bass is chump change.

[Sparky Mark]

2 hours ago, rwillett said:

Head out south west from London to Winchester and start counting big houses, or head to Blackheath in SE London and count the houses around the common and in the Cator Estate. I lived in Greenwich for 15 or so years and coached minis rugby at Blackheath RUFC, the car park on a Sunday morning had a lot of very upmarket cars, I managed to bring the average price down with my 59 Skoda Octavia

 

There are a lot of very, very wealthy people in London and surrounding areas. £2-£5M bonuses are not uncommon for the top. When you earn £750K + £2M bonus because you asset stripped a company, £20K for a bass is chump change.

Who wants to buy my 61P for chump change?

[Misdee]

I have no problem with people buying basses and selling them on at a profit. Good luck to them. No one is forcing anyone to buy them. You pay your money and you take your choice.

 

To me the overarching question is,how much do you believe in vintage Fenders? Is the tangible difference between the old ones and newer examples really so significant that it makes sense to pay a huge premium for it? Or are folks who buy old Fenders nowadays paying for the intangible? And is the intangible worth paying for?

 

I love old Fender basses. I've owned lots of them, all late '60s to mid-70s. Never had a pre-CBS, but played a lot of them over the years. I've currently got three post-2009 USA-made Fender basses that I bought brand new that are hands-down better instruments than any old ones I have had. They sound better, play better and are more reliable. Those are my priorities. Other people may have different ones when choosing a bass.

 

Old Fenders are beautiful objects with a romance all of their own, if you've got one and enjoy it then that is a wonderful thing. But I would be very interested to put this 57 P Bass at 21.5 K up against a Mexican-made Fender Roadworn 57 P Bass, both for sound and playability.

 

Would owning an old Fender bass that cost in excess of twenty grand really be much fun? However old and rare it is, when you sit down with it at home what you have essentially got is a P Bass. Not that different from any other P Bass. To me it would just be a burden. Others may feel very differently though, and I can understand that too.

 

 

[Misdee]

1 minute ago, Sparky Mark said:

Who wants to buy my 61P for chump change?

And then I see something like this and change my mind.

[wateroftyne]

2 minutes ago, Misdee said:

I have no problem with people buying basses and selling them on at a profit. Good luck to them. No one is forcing anyone to buy them. You pay your money and you take your choice.

 

To me the overarching question is,how much do you believe in vintage Fenders? Is the tangible difference between the old ones and newer examples really so significant that it makes sense to pay a huge premium for it? Or are folks who buy old Fenders nowadays paying for the intangible? And is the intangible worth paying for?

 

I love old Fender basses. I've owned lots of them, all late '60s to mid-70s. Never had a pre-CBS, but played a lot of them over the years. I've currently got three post-2009 USA-made Fender basses that I bought brand new that are hands-down better instruments than any old ones I have had. They sound better, play better and are more reliable. Those are my priorities. Other people may have different ones when choosing a bass.

 

Old Fenders are beautiful objects with a romance all of their own, if you've got one and enjoy it then that is a wonderful thing. But I would be very interested to put this 57 P Bass at 21.5 K up against a Mexican-made Fender Roadworn 57 P Bass, both for sound and playability.

 

Would owning an old Fender bass that cost in excess of twenty grand really be much fun? However old and rare it is, when you sit down with it at home what you have essentially got is a P Bass. Not that different from any other P Bass. To me it would just be a burden. Others may feel very differently though, and I can understand that too.

 

 

 

Answer to your question in bold.

[Sparky Mark]

Classic cars and watches are also arguably less reliable than modern equivalents but can still command massive premiums due to their rarity.

[rwillett]

2 minutes ago, Misdee said:

I have no problem with people buying basses and selling them on at a profit. Good luck to them. No one is forcing anyone to buy them. You pay your money and you take your choice.

 

To me the overarching question is,how much do you believe in vintage Fenders? Is the tangible difference between the old ones and newer examples really so significant that it makes sense to pay a huge premium for it? Or are folks who buy old Fenders nowadays paying for the intangible? And is the intangible worth paying for?

 

I love old Fender basses. I've owned lots of them, all late '60s to mid-70s. Never had a pre-CBS, but played a lot of them over the years. I've currently got three post-2009 USA-made Fender basses that I bought brand new that are hands-down better instruments than any old ones I have had. They sound better, play better and are more reliable. Those are my priorities. Other people may have different ones when choosing a bass.

 

Old Fenders are beautiful objects with a romance all of their own, if you've got one and enjoy it then that is a wonderful thing. But I would be very interested to put this 57 P Bass at 21.5 K up against a Mexican-made Fender Roadworn 57 P Bass, both for sound and playability.

 

Would owning an old Fender bass that cost in excess of twenty grand really be much fun? However old and rare it is, when you sit down with it at home what you have essentially got is a P Bass. Not that different from any other P Bass. To me it would just be a burden. Others may feel very differently though, and I can understand that too.

 

 

This is the essential argument for art. Why is the Mona Lisa worth circa $900M? Why is a Ferrari 250GTO worth $60M? Why is Christian Ronaldo worth $200M to play in a Saudi football team? Why is a NHS nurse only worth £30K per annum? I know which is the most important to me.

 

The classic economic theory is a scarce resource and more people wanting it (who have a lot of money) than demand to satisfy the need.

 

I have a very small collection of old maps, I have a Booths poverty map of Greenwich, an old foldable map of London from 1829, one of Derbyshire from 1800 or so and a few others. I paid very little, even though they are scarce, other people don't seem to want them, so they are relatively cheap. Thats the same economic theory as above. Booths poverty maps have attracted a lot more attention recently and their price has gone up around 10x from what I paid.  However I'm not going to be able to retire and buy and island by selling it. I paid £100 and it's worth around £1,200 now. Nice but not life changing.

 

Rob

[Misdee]

58 minutes ago, Sparky Mark said:

Classic cars and watches are also arguably less reliable than modern equivalents but can still command massive premiums due to their rarity.

I nearly mentioned classic cars. That's a good analogy. Watches are also a suitably absurdist equivalent. Whatever watch you get, half past three is half past three.

 

I completely understand why people gravitate to vintage Fenders.The idea that there is a divide between the actuality of what old and new Fender basses do is largely imaginary, that is my point. That, however, is with the huge caveat that the imagination is not a trivial thing. Its the most important thing.

Edited October 18, 2023 by Misdee

[Misdee]

31 minutes ago, rwillett said:

This is the essential argument for art. Why is the Mona Lisa worth circa $900M? Why is a Ferrari 250GTO worth $60M? Why is Christian Ronaldo worth $200M to play in a Saudi football team? Why is a NHS nurse only worth £30K per annum? I know which is the most important to me.

 

The classic economic theory is a scarce resource and more people wanting it (who have a lot of money) than demand to satisfy the need.

 

I have a very small collection of old maps, I have a Booths poverty map of Greenwich, an old foldable map of London from 1829, one of Derbyshire from 1800 or so and a few others. I paid very little, even though they are scarce, other people don't seem to want them, so they are relatively cheap. Thats the same economic theory as above. Booths poverty maps have attracted a lot more attention recently and their price has gone up around 10x from what I paid.  However I'm not going to be able to retire and buy and island by selling it. I paid £100 and it's worth around £1,200 now. Nice but not life changing.

 

Rob

Absolutely right. The market dictates the price. The individual decides on their priorities and whether they are willing and/or able to pay it.

[ossyrocks]

2 hours ago, Misdee said:

Absolutely right. The market dictates the price. The individual decides on their priorities and whether they are willing and/or able to pay it.

Cards on the table, I own three vintage Fender basses from the 70’s.

 

There’s another factor in the equation, and that’s as an investment. I really enjoy owning and playing my basses, they’re all in regular use, and go out to gigs in pubs and clubs with me. I also have a Made In Japan PB62 reissue, which is every bit as nice to play, and sounds great, but it doesn’t feel or sound quite like the old ones.

Anyway, I have paid a pretty penny for my three vintage basses, all purchased within the last two years, BUT, if I hadn’t thought they would increase in value, I wouldn’t have bought them. I’m not one to drop £3k+ on an instrument only to lose money when I come to sell it. I have very seldom bought anything brand new for similar reasons. I know the market can go down as well as up, and I saw that happen in the late 2000’s, but right now the market is on the up, so I’m in it. Money in the bank is a waste of time and has been for a long time. Assets performing well is where I’ve put a bit of my spare cash, and enjoying them is a bonus.

Rob

Edited October 18, 2023 by ossyrocks

[Reggaebass]

1 hour ago, ossyrocks said:

but it doesn’t feel or sound quite like the old ones.

That’s the reason I like them, I’ve got the reissues and they are not the same, it’s also nostalgia for me , I can afford them  so why not buy the things you like 

[rwillett]

@Reggaebass 

 

That's as good a reason as any. If you ever want to offload any, more than happy to help you I don't charge for my services.

Rob

 

8 minutes ago, Reggaebass said:

That’s the reason I like them, I’ve got the reissues and they are not the same, it’s also nostalgia for me , I can afford them  so why not buy the things you like 

 

Edited October 18, 2023 by rwillett

[OliverBlackman]

23 hours ago, Woodinblack said:

 

Wow - do they really go for that? I mean it is an old lump of wood with strings on it.

Cant be that many stock broker walls surely?

Whether true or not, AB has described having rock star names purchase his instruments and when I was once in NKRV they said half their basses had been sent to fleas hotel for him to take a look. 
 

You only need to look at Geddy Lee’s collection to know how capable someone of his ilk is at buying up the vintage market. 
 

I reckon a large majority that go to AB will know already that they want a vintage instrument. The harder choice is which child to swap.

[rwillett]

1 minute ago, OliverBlackman said:

... The harder choice is which child to swap.

 

Given the way my kids are behaving at the problem, I'm very happy to swap both of them for a broken Squier bass with two strings and no fretboard.

Rob

[Owen]

On 17/10/2023 at 15:23, rodney72a said:

On a side note, looking through my archives, 

Absolutely hardcore. I salute you!

[rodney72a]

6 hours ago, Owen said:

Absolutely hardcore. I salute you!

 

Well, there was a time when I was pretty active with saving pics and data from instruments I was interested in (or found interesting and/or educational). Not so much these days but some of them do still pop up on occasions when they change hands again. 

 

Also have a couple on file (from when they were at various dealers) that later ended up in Geddy's book. I made some enquiries about the 1962 Fiesta Precision which was sold by a UK dealer in 2015. Some regrets about that one, I must admit!

[GuyR]

21 hours ago, OliverBlackman said:

 

 

I reckon a large majority that go to AB will know already that they want a vintage instrument. The harder choice is which child to swap.

Any decent human being will treat their children equally.

Swap each of them.

Edited October 19, 2023 by GuyR