Vintage Fenders

[GuyR]

Bearing in mind there seems to be some depth of paint over the scarring around the string mutes, it would be interesting to know if the original dark green paint were under the refin. 

On a later, 62 onward, bass the tort guard would mean an original colour of sunburst, white or blonde, but on custom colours on these earlier dates, I understand there were no white guards so it could be correct.

[Burns-bass]

  On 07/11/2023 at 22:34, GuyR said:

Bearing in mind there seems to be some depth of paint over the scarring around the string mutes, it would be interesting to know if the original dark green paint were under the refin. 

On a later, 62 onward, bass the tort guard would mean an original colour of sunburst, white or blonde, but on custom colours on these earlier dates, I understand there were no white guards so it could be correct.

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I’d take anything the seller says about the colour and originality with a large pinch of salt. I’m not impugning his character, merely that it’s hard to remember every detail over the 60 odd years this bass has been on this earth.
 

The refin makes it even harder to date the bass and it assess its originality. I genuinely don’t understand why people would spend thousands on something with such questionable heritage, but that’s because when I did have vintage gear I’d always try and get stuff with cast iron provenance and assurance that every component was original or not.

 

Personally I’d stay well clear of this, but I’m not the target market, I’m sure. 

[GuyR]

  On 07/11/2023 at 23:08, Burns-bass said:

I’d take anything the seller says about the colour and originality with a large pinch of salt. I’m not impugning his character, merely that it’s hard to remember every detail over the 60 odd years this bass has been on this earth.
 

The refin makes it even harder to date the bass and it assess its originality. I genuinely don’t understand why people would spend thousands on something with such questionable heritage, but that’s because when I did have vintage gear I’d always try and get stuff with cast iron provenance and assurance that every component was original or not.

 

Personally I’d stay well clear of this, but I’m not the target market, I’m sure. 

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Owned since 1968 is a reasonable provenance. I’d expect the seller to have some photographs in period. I avoid refins so I’m not the target market either.

[Burns-bass]

  On 07/11/2023 at 23:40, GuyR said:

Owned since 1968 is a reasonable provenance. I’d expect the seller to have some photographs in period. I avoid refins so I’m not the target market either.

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Provenance is more the ownership, it’s a a guide to its originality and authenticity. If I was buying this I’d make the purchase contingent on an expert appraisal from a vintage dealer. They’ll do that for a set fee (I’ve used the service), which would give me peace of mind over the hazy reminisces of someone who (with all respect ) is likely in their early to mid 70s. 

To give some context, I paid the AA £100 to check over the last used car I bought. They identified a few issues which were sorted before the sale. Its a pretty standard thing to do if you’re spending thousands of pounds…

 

[GuyR]

  On 08/11/2023 at 00:08, Burns-bass said:

Provenance is more the ownership, it’s a a guide to its originality and authenticity. If I was buying this I’d make the purchase contingent on an expert appraisal from a vintage dealer. They’ll do that for a set fee (I’ve used the service), which would give me peace of mind over the hazy reminisces of someone who (with all respect ) is likely in their early to mid 70s. 

To give some context, I paid the AA £100 to check over the last used car I bought. They identified a few issues which were sorted before the sale. Its a pretty standard thing to do if you’re spending thousands of pounds…

 

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He'd probably remember what colour it was when he bought it if it was his primary working tool for 55 years. I agree, I think most people who spend .+£10k get their instrument professionally checked out as a condition of purchase. I know I do.

[wateroftyne]

  On 08/11/2023 at 00:08, Burns-bass said:

Provenance is more the ownership, it’s a a guide to its originality and authenticity. If I was buying this I’d make the purchase contingent on an expert appraisal from a vintage dealer. They’ll do that for a set fee (I’ve used the service), which would give me peace of mind over the hazy reminisces of someone who (with all respect ) is likely in their early to mid 70s. 

To give some context, I paid the AA £100 to check over the last used car I bought. They identified a few issues which were sorted before the sale. Its a pretty standard thing to do if you’re spending thousands of pounds…

 

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If I was spending that much, I’d pop along and have a look at it myself.

[Burns-bass]

  On 08/11/2023 at 08:55, GuyR said:

He'd probably remember what colour it was when he bought it if it was his primary working tool for 55 years. I agree, I think most people who spend .+£10k get their instrument professionally checked out as a condition of purchase. I know I do.

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He’s forgotten to mention it’s been refretted and that half the screws aren’t original, so I’d be cautious. To be honest, I don’t know what I had for dinner Monday. 

[Burns-bass]

  On 08/11/2023 at 09:01, wateroftyne said:

If I was spending that much, I’d pop along and have a look at it myself.

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Obviously yea, but so many people get funny when you start asking them if you can take their guitar apart…

[wateroftyne]

  On 08/11/2023 at 16:19, Burns-bass said:

Obviously yea, but so many people get funny when you start asking them if you can take their guitar apart…

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How would arranging an appraisal overcome that?

[Reggaebass]

  On 08/11/2023 at 16:19, Burns-bass said:

Obviously yea, but so many people get funny when you start asking them if you can take their guitar apart…

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I’ve never actually done that myself, although I have been invited to, I know what I’m doing but I’d be a bit cautious with someone else’s bass , I usually ask for lots of pictures of all the parts I want to see and then I know what’s original and whether it’s worth going to see it, if they don’t send the pictures I don’t bother (which happened to me recently)

[Sparky Mark]

That 61J looks legit to me, albeit with a refret, refinish and replacement pot. Slab fretboard is correct, beautiful uncracked pickguard and the rough bit by the bridge will be from the mute fixing holes.

Black is my least favourite Jazz colour but Sherwood Green would've made his asking price not that unreasonable, possibly a bit of a bargain. 

Edited November 8, 2023 by Sparky Mark

[soulstar89]

  On 07/11/2023 at 16:04, Burns-bass said:

It’s been refretted too, and who knows what else. It’s a wonderful story and surely that’s half the fun with a vintage bass?

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You have better eyes than me. How do you tell if a bass has been refretted? 
 

The frets look completely flat so either needs fret dressing and crowning or a refret. 

[Sparky Mark]

  On 08/11/2023 at 18:34, soulstar89 said:

You have better eyes than me. How do you tell if a bass has been refretted? 
 

The frets look completely flat so either needs fret dressing and crowning or a refret. 

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The frets look wider than original early 60s frets like these on a 63.

Edited November 8, 2023 by Sparky Mark

[soulstar89]

  On 08/11/2023 at 18:49, Sparky Mark said:

The frets look wider than original early 60s frets like these on a 63.

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Gotcha. Yes they do. Look like well-worn medium jumbo frets 

[Sparky Mark]

  On 08/11/2023 at 18:54, soulstar89 said:

Gotcha. Yes they do. Look like well-worn medium jumbo frets 

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There's the possibility that as Sherwood Green was a custom order colour that maybe this bass was ordered with non standard frets?

[Burns-bass]

  On 08/11/2023 at 16:31, wateroftyne said:

How would arranging an appraisal overcome that?

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You’ll make a sale contingent on an independent appraisal. Happens all the time when dealing antiques or art. If the seller refuses to do this then you’ll know whether to walk away I guess. 
 

If I was buying a guitar of this value I’d want this independent appraisal as I’d add it to my insurance as well. If you buy from a dealer you have the receipt which establishes the value, privately you’ll need some proof it’s worth what you say it is. (Gruhn makes a good amount of cash doing this through online appraisals)

 

It’s all irrelevant as this bass looks like junk to me, but it’s what I would do if I were interested. As much as I am a trusting person the value in this is in its originality so I’d do everything I could to establish what was and wasn’t right before parting with a penny.

[wateroftyne]

  On 08/11/2023 at 19:20, Burns-bass said:

You’ll make a sale contingent on an independent appraisal. Happens all the time when dealing antiques or art. If the seller refuses to do this then you’ll know whether to walk away I guess. 
 

If I was buying a guitar of this value I’d want this independent appraisal as I’d add it to my insurance as well. If you buy from a dealer you have the receipt which establishes the value, privately you’ll need some proof it’s worth what you say it is. (Gruhn makes a good amount of cash doing this through online appraisals)

 

It’s all irrelevant as this bass looks like junk to me, but it’s what I would do if I were interested. As much as I am a trusting person the value in this is in its originality so I’d do everything I could to establish what was and wasn’t right before parting with a penny.

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What makes you think of it as junk...?

[Burns-bass]

  On 08/11/2023 at 19:45, wateroftyne said:

What makes you think of it as junk...?

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There are too many unknowns, and while the story is great, it doesn’t add anything to the appeal of the bass to me. I genuinely don’t get the appeal of a refin as the demand is always for originality, plus it’s been hacked around so I’m dubious of it’s playability, too.
 

I also find the value someone has put on it as a reflection of the current madness and mania of the vintage market. 
 

People are free to do what they want with their money, but I’d hate for someone to spend cash on this and be disappointed. AB has a 63 jazz or later 65 for much less cash.

 

I love old basses and some of them are amazing - like the one you picked up and put on here. All original, genuine provenance, realistically valuation, and looks absolutely fantastic. 5 of those would increase in value far more than this would.

[wateroftyne]

  On 08/11/2023 at 20:36, Burns-bass said:

There are too many unknowns, and while the story is great, it doesn’t add anything to the appeal of the bass to me. I genuinely don’t get the appeal of a refin as the demand is always for originality, plus it’s been hacked around so I’m dubious of it’s playability, too.
 

I also find the value someone has put on it as a reflection of the current madness and mania of the vintage market. 
 

People are free to do what they want with their money, but I’d hate for someone to spend cash on this and be disappointed. AB has a 63 jazz or later 65 for much less cash.

 

I love old basses and some of them are amazing - like the one you picked up and put on here. All original, genuine provenance, realistically valuation, and looks absolutely fantastic. 5 of those would increase in value far more than this would.

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So… overpriced, as opposed to junk?

[rodney72a]

  On 08/11/2023 at 18:02, Sparky Mark said:

Black is my least favourite Jazz colour but Sherwood Green would've made his asking price not that unreasonable, possibly a bit of a bargain. 

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If this was original Sherwood Green on a 1961 Jazz, you could add a zero to his asking price.

 

OK that may be a slight exaggeration but it would be beyond rare.

[Reggaebass]

  On 09/11/2023 at 00:47, rodney72a said:

 

If this was original Sherwood Green on a 1961 Jazz, you could add a zero to his asking price.

 

OK that may be a slight exaggeration but it would be beyond rare.

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I don’t like that colour myself but yeah you’re right that would be rare, don’t think I’ve ever seen one in person 

[ped]

You’d be able to strip it back to the green layer I think unless it was removed beforehand. 

[GuyR]

  On 09/11/2023 at 08:09, ped said:

You’d be able to strip it back to the green layer I think unless it was removed beforehand. 

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I've seen it done. If you are careful, you can get an OK result, but even if it is still there, it will have been sanded down to give a surface for the previous two resprays. Looking at the scarring around the string mutes, it does look like there is a decent depth of paint.

 

Having said that, you'd have to have a (unoriginal) screw loose to take a £15k punt

[ossyrocks]

I made enquires regarding this Jazz on ebay today. https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/126177916635
 
I asked if he had any more pictures, particularly of the pots and pickups, and also asked what it weighed.
 
What I got back was "Hi Rob, sorry this is all the photos I have and will be taking. Thanks anyway." 
 
I've asked again about the weight, no reply.
 
Fair enough, I won't buy your bass then!
 
Rob

Edited November 9, 2023 by ossyrocks

[Woodinblack]

  On 09/11/2023 at 16:29, ossyrocks said:

I asked if he had any more pictures, particularly of the pots and pickups, and also asked what it weighed.
 
What I got back was "Hi Rob, sorry this is all the photos I have and will be taking. Thanks anyway."

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Yeh, that would be a no for me even on a £200 bass - if you can't take any more photos I am assuming you don't have the thing you are selling.