Vintage Fenders

[Beedster]

On 08/09/2024 at 22:24, Burns-bass said:

Guy worked with Taylor Swift that’s why. 

And pretty much everyone else, hell of a career for a guy who started out as a metal guitarist 👍

[hiram.k.hackenbacker]

27 minutes ago, Clarky said:

1961 Jazz that was previously owned by Pino, for sale at French vintage guitar and bass dealer. Great patina/ageing (as opposed to relic'ing!) But €29,500 seems one heck of a price to pay

 

https://www.mattsguitar.shop/fr/guitares-stock/fender-jazz-bass-1961-ex-pino-palladino

Someone give the headstock a whack and bring those strings over. Could park a bus on the real estate G string side.

[rwillett]

Everybody has more brass than me so it's not that. It is an expensive bass though to me. I wonder if the string alignment is a perspective issue though

 

The upside to @Piers_Williamson that we share a birthday, though I am a year younger So if you have any Dec 62 basses, that are just too young for you (and are cheap), please bear me in mind and I will of course pass any 61 basses your way.

 

Thanks

Rob

Edited September 18 by rwillett

[Woodinblack]

42 minutes ago, Clarky said:

1961 Jazz that was previously owned by Pino, for sale at French vintage guitar and bass dealer. Great patina/ageing (as opposed to relic'ing!) But €29,500 seems one heck of a price to pay

 

Sure is for a bass that he didn't want!

[ossyrocks]

44 minutes ago, Clarky said:

1961 Jazz that was previously owned by Pino, for sale at French vintage guitar and bass dealer. Great patina/ageing (as opposed to relic'ing!) But €29,500 seems one heck of a price to pay

 

https://www.mattsguitar.shop/fr/guitares-stock/fender-jazz-bass-1961-ex-pino-palladino

I know Matt, we've met a couple of times, he's a nice guy, and very young for one with such fine taste.

 

He specialises in celebrity/rock star owned guitars, and has a personal collection of guitars which belonged to AC/DC. 

 

His prices are always on the high side, but if you want something that was owned and played by Billy Gibbons for example, then his clientele are prepared to pay it seems. He's been doing it for a number of years now. His showroom is by appointment only in Paris.

 

Rob

[GuyR]

Is this the one that was for sale in the UK a few years ago for £15k?

that one had been routed for a battery compartment on the back of the body as it had been converted to active.

if it’s the same one it has recu une repair invisible….

Edited September 18 by GuyR

[Reggaebass]

1 hour ago, GuyR said:

Is this the one that was for sale in the UK a few years ago for £15k?

that one had been routed for a battery compartment on the back of the body as it had been converted to active.

if it’s the same one it has recu une repair invisible….

I think it could be Guy, new kings road vintage had an ex pino 61 stack knob jazz for sale in 2016 for nearly 16k , can’t find any old pics but I’d guess it was the same one 

[Burns-bass]

1 hour ago, GuyR said:

Is this the one that was for sale in the UK a few years ago for £15k?

that one had been routed for a battery compartment on the back of the body as it had been converted to active.

if it’s the same one it has recu une repair invisible….

 

To be fair, he does mention this in the description.

[rwillett]

Great repair job. Ive looked all over the back and I can't see anything that looks like that.

 

 

[Piers_Williamson]

3 hours ago, rwillett said:

Everybody has more brass than me so it's not that. It is an expensive bass though to me. I wonder if the string alignment is a perspective issue though

 

The upside to @Piers_Williamson that we share a birthday, though I am a year younger So if you have any Dec 62 basses, that are just too young for you (and are cheap), please bear me in mind and I will of course pass any 61 basses your way.

 

Thanks

Rob

 

 

Are you left handed?  I would be delighted to swap a 62 for a 61.   Trouble is (other than CS mash-ups) I have never found a l/h 61 fender (of any description).  I suspect the few that there might be are holed up in the US somewhere.

[rodney72a]

7 hours ago, Clarky said:

1961 Jazz that was previously owned by Pino, for sale at French vintage guitar and bass dealer. Great patina/ageing (as opposed to relic'ing!) But €29,500 seems one heck of a price to pay

 

https://www.mattsguitar.shop/fr/guitares-stock/fender-jazz-bass-1961-ex-pino-palladino

 

Decal isn't correct for a 1961.

Edited September 18 by rodney72a

[bakerster135]

55 minutes ago, rodney72a said:

 

Decal isn't correct for a 1961.

Yep, cheap screen-printed replacement decal. Font and pat/des numbers totally incorrect. 1964 onwards pat numbers with the end two the wrong way around.

 

Rest of it looks quite passable but the photos aren't near detailed enough. Need to at least see if it's a slab board and the neck end pencil date. 

 

 

[Burns-bass]

27 minutes ago, bakerster135 said:

Yep, cheap screen-printed replacement decal. Font and pat/des numbers totally incorrect. 1964 onwards pat numbers with the end two the wrong way around.

 

Rest of it looks quite passable but the photos aren't near detailed enough. Need to at least see if it's a slab board and the neck end pencil date. 

 

 

There’s always someone, somewhere with a big nose who knows…

 

(That’s a Smiths lyric, and meant affectionately and respectfully)

 

This level of knowledge is why I love this forum. Last time I bought an expensive vintage bass I received the input from lots of experts before handing over the cash. It’s to be encouraged. 

[bakerster135]

30 minutes ago, Burns-bass said:

There’s always someone, somewhere with a big nose who knows…

 

(That’s a Smiths lyric, and meant affectionately and respectfully)

 

This level of knowledge is why I love this forum. Last time I bought an expensive vintage bass I received the input from lots of experts before handing over the cash. It’s to be encouraged. 

I appreciate the quote, and if I'd bought the bass believing it to be all original then heaven knows I'd be miserable now...

I could bore you to death with what I know about Fender decals, mainly gained from personal experience, but this Talkbass thread is pretty accurate for reference https://www.talkbass.com/threads/vintage-fender-decals-who-really-knows-the-facts.902851/

N.B. The only amendment that I would make/suggest is that I have seen legit 1962-67 JB decals with the 168,083 DES number rather than 187,001. So, this shouldn't inherently suggest a fake, but it needs to be considered in line with all of the other aspects.

Edited September 18 by bakerster135

[Burns-bass]

7 hours ago, bakerster135 said:

I appreciate the quote, and if I'd bought the bass believing it to be all original then heaven knows I'd be miserable now...

I could bore you to death with what I know about Fender decals, mainly gained from personal experience, but this Talkbass thread is pretty accurate for reference https://www.talkbass.com/threads/vintage-fender-decals-who-really-knows-the-facts.902851/

N.B. The only amendment that I would make/suggest is that I have seen legit 1962-67 JB decals with the 168,083 DES number rather than 187,001. So, this shouldn't inherently suggest a fake, but it needs to be considered in line with all of the other aspects.

I’m not a drinker of the vintage Fender Kool-Aid but appreciate there is a lot to learn about it all.

 

When I paid a substantial sum of cash 10 years ago, I got 3 experts to independently provide their view on the bass’s authenticity and there was a consensus. 
 

Since then I’ve seen lots of dubious basses for sale and it’s quite sad to see people potentially getting ripped off. A few pages back I listed two I’d previously owned for sale without the seller providing details on the changes to them.
 

 

[rwillett]

13 hours ago, Piers_Williamson said:

 

 

Are you left handed?  I would be delighted to swap a 62 for a 61.   Trouble is (other than CS mash-ups) I have never found a l/h 61 fender (of any description).  I suspect the few that there might be are holed up in the US somewhere.

Sadly I'm not left handed. I also don't have a 61 Fender of any description. Wish I did.

 

I can 3d print you a left handed bass. Technically its a trivial maths operation, you take a right handed design and reflect it. About 10 secs of work. This is an early Fender Jazz copy I made at the beginning of the year. I put an older Fender Jazz neck on that somebody kindly donated. Plays well and sounds great. So if you have an older L/H 61 neck, I can get you part of the way there.

 

 

Same guitar but now left handed.

 

 

However, no matter what I do, it's still not a genuine 61 Fender though. Sorry

 

Rob

Edited September 19 by rwillett

[Sparky Mark]

9 hours ago, bakerster135 said:

Yep, cheap screen-printed replacement decal. Font and pat/des numbers totally incorrect. 1964 onwards pat numbers with the end two the wrong way around.

 

Rest of it looks quite passable but the photos aren't near detailed enough. Need to at least see if it's a slab board and the neck end pencil date. 

 

 

The lack of wear on the neck is inconsistent with the heavy wear on the body. I'd wager the incorrect decal was added following the neck being refinished.

[hiram.k.hackenbacker]

17 hours ago, rwillett said:

Everybody has more brass than me so it's not that. It is an expensive bass though to me. I wonder if the string alignment is a perspective issue though

If you’re referring to parallax error, the photo was taken head on. Questionable saddle positions and string spacing as well which of course are easily remedied, but FFS, if you’re asking that much for a bass, at least make it look presentable.

[Beedster]

1 hour ago, Burns-bass said:

I’m not a drinker of the vintage Fender Kool-Aid but appreciate there is a lot to learn about it all.

 

When I paid a substantial sum of cash 10 years ago, I got 3 experts to independently provide their view on the bass’s authenticity and there was a consensus. 
 

Since then I’ve seen lots of dubious basses for sale and it’s quite sad to see people potentially getting ripped off. A few pages back I listed two I’d previously owned for sale without the seller providing details on the changes to them.
 

 

 

One of the least pleasant experiences I've had on BC was selling a '60s Precision to a 'member' (I use the inverted commas because he was 100% a dealer and anyway was technically 'members' plural as he had multiple Basschat IDs and was clever about doing it) in around 2008/9. He came back a few weeks after the sale and said he'd had the instrument independently verified as not original or authentic. Quite a lot of money had changed hands and this was a pretty anxiety-inducing thing, especially as I no longer had the money which had gone into a mortgage deposit. I'm a trusting person (less so now sadly, in part due to the guy in question), so my first worry was 'Shit, I've been sold a dud, didn't do my homework, and am possibly going to be left several thousand out of pocket'. Having said that, two guys on here had looked at all the evidence and had given it the all clear. The buyer sent me what appeared to be a professional appraisal of the instrument and indicated that he was expecting a significant cash refund, interestingly not a reversal of the deal, IIRC I had told him I was only selling the bass to put money into the mortgage so he kinda had me over a barrel. I said I would go back to the original seller who, to his credit, went straight to business and produced not only a lot of documentary evidence relating to past ownership but also cast significant empirical doubt on the detail of the 'professional appraisal' 

 

I had a PM from a long standing member a year or so later suggesting the same guy had done something similar. I messaged the mods about it. I also messaged the 'member/s' and told him/them I was wise to his multiple IDs and wondered why he would do it as it shouts 'dodgy'. I didn't mention the fact that he appeared to be trying to scam members by using dubious facts about instruments, I should have done, and I certainly would now.

 

Is he still a member here? I'd be surprised if not, although I imagine with different usernames

 

 

[Beedster]

8 minutes ago, Beedster said:

 

One of the least pleasant experiences I've had on BC was selling a '60s Precision to a 'member' (I use the inverted commas because he was 100% a dealer and anyway was technically 'members' plural as he had multiple Basschat IDs and was clever about doing it) in around 2008/9. He came back a few weeks after the sale and said he'd had the instrument independently verified as not original or authentic. Quite a lot of money had changed hands and this was a pretty anxiety-inducing thing, especially as I no longer had the money which had gone into a mortgage deposit. I'm a trusting person (less so now sadly, in part due to the guy in question), so my first worry was 'Shit, I've been sold a dud, didn't do my homework, and am possibly going to be left several thousand out of pocket'. Having said that, two guys on here had looked at all the evidence and had given it the all clear. The buyer sent me what appeared to be a professional appraisal of the instrument and indicated that he was expecting a significant cash refund, interestingly not a reversal of the deal, IIRC I had told him I was only selling the bass to put money into the mortgage so he kinda had me over a barrel. I said I would go back to the original seller who, to his credit, went straight to business and produced not only a lot of documentary evidence relating to past ownership but also cast significant empirical doubt on the detail of the 'professional appraisal' 

 

I had a PM from a long standing member a year or so later suggesting the same guy had done something similar. I messaged the mods about it. I also messaged the 'member/s' and told him/them I was wise to his multiple IDs and wondered why he would do it as it shouts 'dodgy'. I didn't mention the fact that he appeared to be trying to scam members by using dubious facts about instruments, I should have done, and I certainly would now.

 

Is he still a member here? I'd be surprised if not, although I imagine with different usernames

 

 

 

It's probably important that I make it clear that I have no hard evidence that I was being scammed, and it ended without acrimony. But it certainly felt like I was being scammed at the time (and that was also the view of few others I was keeping in the loop). It's quite possible that the appraisal of the bass given to the member in question was genuine if, as it transpired ill-informed, and that the member was acting in good faith. However the fact that it happened twice, plus the multiple BC IDs, tend to push my thinking in the opposite direction. Vintage Fenders are a big money business, there's a lot of emotions around the buying and ownership of them, so it's bound to attract some sharks

[Burns-bass]

Sorry story, Chris. In the end, the buyer had no recourse in any case and was probably trying to play off on your good nature. (I sent a cheap bass to someone on here once. When it arrived, the neck had seemingly developed a split. Instead of asking what had happened, I was accused of sending a broken instrument to someone and my character was impugned. I refunded all the money and blocked them, several reasons why I don't send basses anymore...)

 

The vintage market is an odd one. One thing that I've experienced is that vintage dealers rarely want to buy back instruments they've previously sold, which raises a red flag to me. (Not all, but some.)

 

The current ability of fakers and forgers is incredible. Musicians are, on the whole, a trusting bunch and I'm saddened to see a lot of the dodgy dealing that goes on.

 

Thankfully, now I only use modern instruments I'm not forever worried that a replaced jack socket, pot or re-fret will reduce the value of my instrument by £1000.

 

I realised the stupidity of this when the tech I go to replaced the jack socket in my 66 Fender. I asked him where it was and went through his parts trash to pull it out so I could keep it with the instrument (in some weird way, ensuring it's 100% original). The sheer stupidity of keeping a part worth a few pennies hit me at that moment and, since then, I've not fished around in bins!

[Beedster]

16 minutes ago, Burns-bass said:

Sorry story, Chris. In the end, the buyer had no recourse in any case and was probably trying to play off on your good nature. (I sent a cheap bass to someone on here once. When it arrived, the neck had seemingly developed a split. Instead of asking what had happened, I was accused of sending a broken instrument to someone and my character was impugned. I refunded all the money and blocked them, several reasons why I don't send basses anymore...)

 

The vintage market is an odd one. One thing that I've experienced is that vintage dealers rarely want to buy back instruments they've previously sold, which raises a red flag to me. (Not all, but some.)

 

The current ability of fakers and forgers is incredible. Musicians are, on the whole, a trusting bunch and I'm saddened to see a lot of the dodgy dealing that goes on.

 

Thankfully, now I only use modern instruments I'm not forever worried that a replaced jack socket, pot or re-fret will reduce the value of my instrument by £1000.

 

I realised the stupidity of this when the tech I go to replaced the jack socket in my 66 Fender. I asked him where it was and went through his parts trash to pull it out so I could keep it with the instrument (in some weird way, ensuring it's 100% original). The sheer stupidity of keeping a part worth a few pennies hit me at that moment and, since then, I've not fished around in bins!

 

It's a journey that I'm glad I've also come to the end of Lawrie 👍

 

(PS interesting point about dealers not wanting to buy back instruments they previoulsy sold......)

[Burns-bass]

16 minutes ago, Beedster said:

 

It's a journey that I'm glad I've also come to the end of Lawrie 👍

 

(PS interesting point about dealers not wanting to buy back instruments they previoulsy sold......)

 

Yes, I had a couple of old Fenders bought from two different dealers and neither was interested in taking them back as a P/X or buy them back. Personally, that rang a few alarm bells, but perhaps they were struggling with cashflow.

 

Either way, none of those basses lives here anymore. The 66 is still in its case and never gets paid either, I just can't part with it given how much of me it took to buy it. Maybe I should start using it again.

[Woodinblack]

2 hours ago, Beedster said:

Is he still a member here? I'd be surprised if not, although I imagine with different usernames

 

If you (as in anyone, not specifically you) have doubts as to either whether someone was a scammer or if someone has multiple usernames, then feel free to let us know about it.

[Beedster]

26 minutes ago, Woodinblack said:

 

If you (as in anyone, not specifically you) have doubts as to either whether someone was a scammer or if someone has multiple usernames, then feel free to let us know about it.

Thanks @Woodinblack re the above more than one of your fellow mods were/are aware 👍