Vintage Fenders

[GuyR]

I’ve tried the 61 at Bass Gallery. 
It’s as good as vintage Jazz as you will find. 
It came from the same very long-term ownership as the 70 fretless Jazz and the Jazz-neck Precision.

I have no doubt it is original apart from the bridge, the original one was retained and will be supplied with the bass.

I’m not sure why BG don’t put a little more information in the description, but the turnover of stock suggests they manage ok as they are. 
I have bought 3 basses from them, ex-Pino 79 fretless stingray, oly 62 Jazz and the aforementioned 70 fretless. They get some absolutely stellar stock and they are solid to deal with.

[Hellzero]

Been away yesterday, so sorry for the late reply @Burns-bass.

 

The body is period correct, some details confirming everything including an extra hole at a certain place and the black painted neck pocket, which was the norm back then for sunburst, but it has been oversprayed.

 

The pickguard has absolutely not shrunken and is not glossy on the back, so is not from that era, but a later one.

 

The controls must be concentric in 1961 and furthermore only the tone control is period correct being a Stackpole from 1961, but it doesn't belong to this bass, so the whole control plate has been changed certainly due to the Jaco syndrome.

 

Solders on the neck pickup are brand new.

 

The neck has also received an overspray and the logo is not original as it should be darker and positioned a bit closer to the nut.

 

Not a fake at all, but there are some non correct elements and an overspray, worth asking for a lower price.

[Hellzero]

By the way, the 3 knobs arrangement was introduced in 1962, but, as usual, not on all Jazz Basses.

 

And the placement of the logo was the way it was done in 1962.

[Burns-bass]

37 minutes ago, Hellzero said:

Been away yesterday, so sorry for the late reply @Burns-bass.

 

The body is period correct, some details confirming everything including an extra hole at a certain place and the black painted neck pocket, which was the norm back then for sunburst, but it has been oversprayed.

 

The pickguard has absolutely not shrunken and is not glossy on the back, so is not from that era, but a later one.

 

The controls must be concentric in 1961 and furthermore only the tone control is period correct being a Stackpole from 1961, but it doesn't belong to this bass, so the whole control plate has been changed certainly due to the Jaco syndrome.

 

Solders on the neck pickup are brand new.

 

The neck has also received an overspray and the logo is not original as it should be darker and positioned a bit closer to the nut.

 

Not a fake at all, but there are some non correct elements and an overspray, worth asking for a lower price.

And this is what I don’t have the vintage bass fever anymore. 

[bakerster135]

1 hour ago, Hellzero said:

By the way, the 3 knobs arrangement was introduced in 1962, but, as usual, not on all Jazz Basses.

 

And the placement of the logo was the way it was done in 1962.

With all due respect, I disagree on the timing here. I have it from a few reputable authorities that the concentric control configuration was officially changed in late 1961 and have seen some examples that concur with this idea. You do see Jazz basses with concentric configurations with 1962 dates but, as we know, Leo liked to avoid wasting money so he used up his stock of the stack knobs, although the actual updated design had changed.

[Burns-bass]

12 minutes ago, bakerster135 said:

With all due respect, I disagree on the timing here. I have it from a few reputable authorities that the concentric control configuration was officially changed in late 1961 and have seen some examples that concur with this idea. You do see Jazz basses with concentric configurations with 1962 dates but, as we know, Leo liked to avoid wasting money so he used up his stock of the stack knobs, although the actual updated design had changed.

 

I'm not sure I buy this idea of Fender as some sort of mad professor., or penny pinching stooge. Anyone who has worked in factories or with factories (my dad's job was work flow management and production process design, so I have heard a lot about it) you're going to tool up for specific jobs. It would make no sense to have two concurrent processes in place.

 

I'm sure there are anomalies out there, but this was a professional factory knocking out a lot of instruments not an artisan workshop (despite what the myth makers would tell you!).

[Hellzero]

@bakerster135 , the 3 knobs arrangement was decided, as introduced is not really correct, in late 1961 early 1962, according to Leo Fender himself, but was fitted to 1962 Jazz Basses on.

 

As you said, you may find oddities, but these appear more after the sale to CBS in January 1965 as they were emptying drawers.

 

In the case of the advertised bass, the only period correct pot is a Stackpole from early June 1961, the two others being a Japanese model for the neck pickup volume and an unknown date CTS for the bridge.

 

Furthermore, the new solders on the neck pickup clearly indicate a modification or more precisely an alteration.

 

When Fender switched to the 3 knobs arrangement, they also switched to CTS pots...

 

So, on the model we are looking at, the control plate doesn't match with the rest.

 

It's no big deal per se, but should have been mentioned.

[Beedster]

13 hours ago, ossyrocks said:

@briansbrew commented on how vibrant the red remains, and yes it is, much more so than my 70's sunbursts.

 

Look at the pic with the guard off, showing the underside of the guard, and the body where the guard has been for more than 60 years. There is absolutely no difference in shade, fade, or colour between the area under the guard and the rest of the body. I have never seen this. Also, the same photo, notice how "orangepeely" the finish is, which I have also never seen on a 60's Fender. I'm not saying the finish isn't original, I'm just saying I would want multiple authentications on that from people who know more than I.

 

Rob

 

I'm no expert but the first thing I felt (not thought, gut feel as opposed to forensic evaluation) when I looked at the pics was that the finish seemed a bit wrong

[Beedster]

1 minute ago, Beedster said:

 

I'm no expert but the first thing I felt (not thought, gut feel as opposed to forensic evaluation) when I looked at the pics was that the finish seemed a bit wrong

 

....not saying it is of course, but it was an immediate reaction, colours all seem very vivid for a 60-year old instrument compared to others I've seen? Might just be the photos/light?

[asingardenof]

I wonder what this is all about?

 

[Reggaebass]

They are string mute fixing holes 

[Burns-bass]

36 minutes ago, Reggaebass said:

They are string mute fixing holes 

 

Yeah but it looks like the screw heard have been snapped off. 

 

Crazy time the 60s I guess.

[Reggaebass]

24 minutes ago, Burns-bass said:

 

Yeah but it looks like the screw heard have been snapped off. 

 

Crazy time the 60s I guess.

Ah yeah thanks didn’t see that, only looked quickly on my phone 

[Burns-bass]

10 minutes ago, Reggaebass said:

Ah yeah thanks didn’t see that, only looked quickly on my phone 

 

Totally get it. 

 

What's fascinating – and reassuring – is the way that the group here can provide insights, experience and opinions that I'd hope any buyer would find useful if they were interested in buying the bass.

 

I've hd ots of help from people on here about basses, double basses, amps and powered speakers that have really helped me.

[Hellzero]

1 hour ago, Beedster said:

 

I'm no expert but the first thing I felt (not thought, gut feel as opposed to forensic evaluation) when I looked at the pics was that the finish seemed a bit wrong

 

1 hour ago, Beedster said:

 

....not saying it is of course, but it was an immediate reaction, colours all seem very vivid for a 60-year old instrument compared to others I've seen? Might just be the photos/light?

Hi Chris, hope you're well.

 

What's been done here, as it's obvious that the colour is too vivid, is that the clear coat (responsible for the yellowing) has been removed and an overspray (not a new clear coat as it wouldn't have that orange peel vibe) has been applied making it look like new, but with all the scars left!?!

[Beedster]

1 minute ago, Hellzero said:

 

Hi Chris, hope you're well.

 

What's been done here, as it's obvious that the colour is too vivid, is that the clear coat (responsible for the yellowing) has been removed and an overspray (not a new clear coat as it wouldn't have that orange peel vibe) has been applied making it look like new, but with all the scars left!?!

 

Hey Tony, all good here thanks mate, hope the same's true with you. OK, everyday's a school day, that's really interesting and something I was not aware of. Thanks for posting 👍

[Burns-bass]

26 minutes ago, Hellzero said:

 

Hi Chris, hope you're well.

 

What's been done here, as it's obvious that the colour is too vivid, is that the clear coat (responsible for the yellowing) has been removed and an overspray (not a new clear coat as it wouldn't have that orange peel vibe) has been applied making it look like new, but with all the scars left!?!

 

How does this work and who would have done it?

 

I'm just curious at what point someone would choose to remove a clear coat and then apply an overspray. Was this regularly happening in the 80s or something?

 

[Reggaebass]

Isn’t this where a blacklight test would show any difference, I’ve seen some pictures where nitro finishes are green colour and overspray is a different colour, only what I’ve read about though, and seen in some descriptions 

[Burns-bass]

4 minutes ago, Reggaebass said:

Isn’t this where a blacklight test would show any difference, I’ve seen some pictures where nitro finishes are green colour and overspray is a different colour, only what I’ve read about though, and seen in some descriptions 

 

Yes, I think this is the gold-standard of testing (that you'd expect on a bass of this value).

 

If you're spending £100k on a double bass, it's normally supported by an independent valuation from an authority like the Martins. In the vintage world, you can get this from Gruhns I believe, but I'm sure there are others out there that offer this.

 

My question is why you'd overspray it and who would do it? 

 

Is it something normal people did in the past to protect a degrading finish or a duplicitous trick by rascally vintage dealers?

[rwillett]

19 minutes ago, Burns-bass said:

If you're spending £100k on a double bass,

 

Is that what double basses can go for? Wow! I suppose same as top end violins... I'll not go down that rabbit hole. I actually blinked a few times reading £100K

 

Anyway back to the thread, interesting thread to which I cannot contribute but still very interesting

[Hellzero]

21 minutes ago, Burns-bass said:

Is it something normal people did in the past to protect a degrading finish or a duplicitous trick by rascally vintage dealers?

Both of the proposals are correct, but due to higher prices of vintage gear, the second one would certainly be the most appropriate.

[Hellzero]

56 minutes ago, Burns-bass said:

 

How does this work and who would have done it?

 

I'm just curious at what point someone would choose to remove a clear coat and then apply an overspray. Was this regularly happening in the 80s or something?

 

Not only the 80's, it started earlier to give a new shine at a lower cost to some not vintage at all instruments back then.

 

A lot of Fender's have been slaughtered during the 70's and 80's before the vintage hype.

 

An overspray is something you can do yourself with a simple can of spray finish clear coat, you just have to be careful with the type of lacquer used.

[Burns-bass]

28 minutes ago, rwillett said:

 

Is that what double basses can go for? Wow! I suppose same as top end violins... I'll not go down that rabbit hole. I actually blinked a few times reading £100K

 

Anyway back to the thread, interesting thread to which I cannot contribute but still very interesting

Probably only a few instruments a year sell for that price but that’s a fraction of what a top-end violin would cost you. 

[Owen]

1 hour ago, Burns-bass said:

Probably only a few instruments a year sell for that price but that’s a fraction of what a top-end violin would cost you. 

Ask how much a nice violin bow costs. I dare you.

[sprocketflup]

I wonder how much a violin bow costs?