Vintage Fenders

[briansbrew]

Original Fender 61 catalogue

 

 

 

[Rick's Fine '52]

6 hours ago, briansbrew said:

Original Fender 61 catalogue

 

 

 

Is there a relevant comment missing from this? 

[briansbrew]

43 minutes ago, Rick's Fine '52 said:

Is there a relevant comment missing from this? 

I came across this showing that the stacked knobs started in 1961

[Rick's Fine '52]

30 minutes ago, briansbrew said:

I came across this showing that the stacked knobs started in 1961

That’s ‘61, in the ‘60 catalog, it shows the same image, but with ‘New’ against it. As taken by my pics just taken, with the ‘61 alongside. Think it’s well known that stacks were for sale from mid ‘60-mid’61, when the 3-knobs were introduced. 

[Hellzero]

And a 1962, according to the guy speaking, Fender catalogue where you see the 3 knobs Jazz Bass (go to 2:30):

 

 

 

I know the guy is turning the pages like a moron.

[Hellzero]

Here is the labelled 1962-63 official Fender catalogue where you also see the 3 knobs version of the Jazz Bass.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Rick's Fine '52]

46 minutes ago, Hellzero said:

And a 1962, according to the guy speaking, Fender catalogue where you see the 3 knobs Jazz Bass (go to 2:30):

 

 

 

I know the guy is turning the pages like a moron.

Yep! 

[Hellzero]

So according to the catalogues, the 3 knobs Jazz Bass was only available from 1962 on.

 

Of course, the instruments have been photographed earlier, so Leo Fender own statement saying that the 3 knobs version was introduced in late 1961 early 1962 is absolutely right.

 

Late meaning the last quarter of the year, anything before that can't be fully original and authentic: this is called recouping information.

 

As I wrote earlier some people are rewriting history for their own purposes.

[Rick's Fine '52]

3 minutes ago, Hellzero said:

So according to the catalogues, the 3 knobs Jazz Bass was only available from 1962 on.

 

Of course, the instruments have been photographed earlier, so Leo Fender own statement saying that the 3 knobs version was introduced in late 1961 early 1962 is absolutely right.

 

Late meaning the last quarter of the year, anything before that can't be fully original and authentic: this is called recouping information.

 

As I wrote earlier some people are rewriting history for their own purposes.

Really? OK 🤦‍♂️

[Hellzero]

I'm also compiling a list of very useful books, trying to be the most exhaustive, to help those interested in authentication of vintage Fender's.

 

But, of course, there will still be people denying the written evidences.

 

Edited Saturday at 22:18 by Hellzero

[Rick's Fine '52]

4 minutes ago, Hellzero said:

So according to the catalogues, the 3 knobs Jazz Bass was only available from 1962 on.

 

Of course, the instruments have been photographed earlier, so Leo Fender own statement saying that the 3 knobs version was introduced in late 1961 early 1962 is absolutely right.

 

Late meaning the last quarter of the year, anything before that can't be fully original and authentic: this is called recouping information.

 

As I wrote earlier some people are rewriting history for their own purposes.

A sales catalogue for instruments available that year would have been produced late the previous year, as with any sales brochure. 

[Hellzero]

1 minute ago, Rick's Fine '52 said:

A sales catalogue for instruments available that year would have been produced late the previous year, as with any sales brochure. 

Maybe you should learn to read...

[Rick's Fine '52]

2 minutes ago, Hellzero said:

I'm also compiling a list of very useful books, trying to be the mist exhaustive, to help those interested in authentication of vintage Fender's.

Based on your comments here, you should do more research on vintage Fenders before you do that. And I mean study the actual instruments. If you think 3-knob Jazz basses started in 1962, then you have much to learn. 

[Rick's Fine '52]

3 minutes ago, Hellzero said:

Maybe you should learn to read...

You should look at more vintage instruments. 

[Hellzero]

2 minutes ago, Rick's Fine '52 said:

Based on your comments here, you should do more research on vintage Fenders before you do that. And I mean study the actual instruments. If you think 3-knob Jazz basses started in 1962, then you have much to learn. 

 

1 minute ago, Rick's Fine '52 said:

You should look at more vintage instruments. 

I'VE OWNED LOADS OF VINTAGE INSTRUMENTS AND HAVE ALWAYS TAKEN THEM APART, FURTHERMORE AS STATED EARLIER I RAN MY OWN LUTHIERY AND REPAIR SHOP OVER CLOSE TO 2 DECADES AND HAD LOADS OF VINTAGE INSTRUMENTS TO FIX OR SIMPLY SET UP, AND I ALSO WROTE A MÉMOIRE ABOUT VINTAGE INSTRUMENTS THAT HAS BEEN PUT HERE SEVERAL TIMES.

 

Maybe you should stop replying without having really read and understood what was written.

[Rick's Fine '52]

10 minutes ago, Hellzero said:

 

I'VE OWNED LOADS OF VINTAGE INSTRUMENTS AND HAVE ALWAYS TAKEN THEM APART, FURTHERMORE AS STATED EARLIER I RAN MY OWN LUTHIERY AND REPAIR SHOP OVER CLOSE TO 2 DECADES AND HAD LOADS OF VINTAGE INSTRUMENTS TO FIX OR SIMPLY SET UP, AND I ALSO WROTE A MÉMOIRE ABOUT VINTAGE INSTRUMENTS THAT HAS BEEN PUT HERE SEVERAL TIMES.

 

Maybe you should stop replying without having really read and understood what was written.

Ok, very pleased for you and your self-pronounced important history, I certainly wouldn’t buy an instrument from you though, even if you advertised it in CAPITALS!

[Rick's Fine '52]

37 minutes ago, Hellzero said:

Maybe you should learn to read...

Are you saying this isn’t genuine? 
 

I mean it would be easy to buy a set of stacked knobs and swap them, and sell it for £10k more than this sold for if people wanted to exploit a market, but this is real, and rarer than a stack knob, but cheaper because many people paying £20k+ want a stack knob.
 

There’s literally tons of examples of 3-knob ‘61’s out there (AB has sold 2 examples in the past 3 months, both shown in this thread alone, a burst and a blonde) and no ‘62 stack knobs have ever been seen, obviously and for good reason. But hey, you’re the expert.
 

https://www.andybaxterbass.com/collections/fender-jazz-bass/products/1961-fender-jazz-bass-sunburst?

[GuyR]

 

1 hour ago, Hellzero said:

Maybe you should learn to read...

He can clearly read the neck date, pot codes and serial number on his 1961 VVT Jazz Bass.

 

[Burns-bass]

It’s a real shame it’s gone this way (and also a bit sad). 

[Hellzero]

So, if it's all about money and nothing else while completely refuting written historical evidences and the fact that with Fender's anything can be swapped to create a totally authentic original fake, that's enough for me.

 

My grand grandmother used to say: "Help a villain, he'll shit in your hand!"

 

She was right.

 

Farewell!

 

 

[ped]

Back to normal now please? One of the most useful threads on BC. Don’t ruin it by arguing about something so daft. 

[rwillett]

12 minutes ago, ped said:

Back to normal now please? One of the most useful threads on BC. Don’t ruin it by arguing about something so daft. 

100% agree. 

[Aidan63]

 just a FYI, in the VW car world, model year production generally starts on 1st August, when their summer shutdown finishes (they do the bigger mods and upgrades to the production line during shutdown, and obviously plan and agree changes with suppliers a long time before that) so a 2000 model year (i.e. built to 2000 specification) could be built and sold and on the road long before the beginning of the model year, depending on the sales and stock of the different countries' importer/dealer network. 

You'd have to talk (or have talked to a long time ago when they were alive and had reliable memory) to people who worked at Fender on the sales and production (production scheduling particularly) side to understand what their lead times and schedules and 'year' break points were back then, chances are they weren't as cast in stone as VWs, as it would depend on the tax and sales cycles, when are the brochures released, when are stock sales agreed etc....these days we partly have the 2 NAMM cycle which will influence that quite a lot, I don't know how that was done 60 plus years ago, but I bet it wasn't quite as regimented as now when the accountants pretty much run the businesses, and everyone else is secondary.

 

Ref the Jazz bass, I always thought swap to VVT was mid (whatever that means) 61 from several (fairly common and cheap) books and many articles I have read but I haven't been down the whole vintage rabbit hole, but likely the articles were written from research based often on the same books and oft told and repeated 'facts'. 

Does anyone know how many Jazz basses were built between the 1st one and the end of 1961 ? How many were stack, how many VVT, how many changed by factory at the time or subsequently (Fender was tight with musicians/dealers who were effectively development testers), how many changed by dealers ? Is that openly available information, did Fender (and especially the dealers) even record that accurately, was there a serial number register back then, did they actually build c.17000 instruments of all models in 1961 or was that figure just the max possible (planned i.e. 70/day based on 5 day week and 10 days annual holiday) production and serial number allocation, is the data set still intact or has it been lost to fire or thrown away or stolen at some point ? Without definitive primary source information like that we'll never really know, it is just by observation that we can make 'informed' conclusions and build a narrative around that - as Hellzero, AndyB, Norms, ATB many other etc.. have all done, but no one will ever know for sure, so assertions can only be made  qualified by 'as far as we can estimate based on the available information both past and current'.

Even now Fender's online digital database isn't exhaustive, and doesn't go that far back, has lots of gaps especially for short run instruments and overseas production, and I bet even any Fender in house published history account isn't absolutely accurate, as there will be stuff they didn't want to reveal/admit to, and a little obfuscation is good for the myth and increases the mystery, the potential that one day you could possibly find under your great grandparents' bed a unique instrument that is worth even more that the rest of the extremely expensive instruments already in circulation, a lottery win 😃 

[Beedster]

21 minutes ago, ped said:

Back to normal now please? One of the most useful threads on BC. Don’t ruin it by arguing about something so daft. 

 

Agree, but the debate does show what a bloody minefield vintage Fenders are, hope no-one's fallen out over it 👍

[Rick's Fine '52]

7 minutes ago, Beedster said:

 

Agree, but the debate does show what a bloody minefield vintage Fenders are, hope no-one's fallen out over it 👍

I agree too. It’s a great thread. However it isn’t the minefield some may think if you know what you’re looking at. Lots of simple nonsense spoken, in full view of simple, well known facts. But I’m out of this post too, I now remember why I stopped coming to this site some years back. Shame.