Vintage Fenders

[Burns-bass]

23 minutes ago, OliverBlackman said:

I suppose it depends on what you want from the instrument. I hear a sound that I have only heard through the vintage Fenders I’ve played (more than I should have done). And because I don’t gig I don’t have to worry about it getting nicked or knocked. My thoughts on replacing dodgy or worn parts is that most don’t still have the original strings so other parts that wear should be replaced, ideally with high quality new parts.

That’s cool. I used to take my 66 jazz bass in a soft case on my bike, not any more! 
 

I once owned an amazing condition 64 jazz bass (you can see it on the old listings here). It’s was so clean I never played it. I owned it for 2 years and reckon it came out of the case maybe 10 times. 
 

 

[Woodinblack]

6 hours ago, OliverBlackman said:

I’ve yet to find a modern bass that sounds the same as a 60s or 70s Fender bass. I’ve really tried because I want that sound and was silly enough to waste money on a house all and the trimmings they require. I have been lucky to A/B true vintage against reissues (even an 80s Fullerton jazz) and they just didn’t sound the same.

 

What sound is that? I have played 6 60s jazzes and they haven't sounded the same. In fact, from sound I wouldn't be able to put a decade on anything. The best sounding Jazz I ever played was a 1965 jazz, sounded great (no use though, not enough strings). However, one of the worst jazzes I have ever played was a 1966 jazz - a squier affinity would have probably sounded bettter, anything would. The 66 was more expensive though as it was original, whereas the 65 had had a refret and had a replacement pot. And frankly what they sound like or play like is not really so important to their value.

 

4 hours ago, OliverBlackman said:

Hopefully the bubble will burst with vintage fenders but folk have being saying that will happen for over a decade.

 

There is no bubble, it is an appreciating asset, there are (and can be) only certain amounts of 60s basses, that number is going down, and the number of people with disposable income is going up, so they will keep appreciating. There are no shortage of bankers or stock brokers who have a display case for one.

[BlueMoon]

8 hours ago, Woodinblack said:

and the number of people with disposable income is going up

Maybe not in the next few years...............but, overall I agree with the market conditions you summarise.

[Belka]

15 hours ago, OliverBlackman said:

Get ready to be shot.

 

I’ve yet to find a modern bass that sounds the same as a 60s or 70s Fender bass. I’ve really tried because I want that sound and was silly enough to waste money on a house all and the trimmings they require. I have been lucky to A/B true vintage against reissues (even an 80s Fullerton jazz) and they just didn’t sound the same.

I agree with you. Especially with regard to Jazz basses. The repro Precisions tend to be closer to the originals, but every vintage style modern Jazz I've tried has not sounded that close to the actual vintage ones. For some reason this seems to be more the case with '70s style instruments. Personally I think the main factor is modern manufacturers getting the pickups wrong - they wind them far too hot these days compared to the originals.

[LukeFRC]

8 hours ago, Woodinblack said:

There is no bubble, it is an appreciating asset, there are (and can be) only certain amounts of 60s basses, that number is going down, and the number of people with disposable income is going up, so they will keep appreciating. There are no shortage of bankers or stock brokers who have a display case for one.

Didn’t vintage guitar prices dip after the 2008 crash? 

[Belka]

8 hours ago, Woodinblack said:

 

What sound is that? I have played 6 60s jazzes and they haven't sounded the same. In fact, from sound I wouldn't be able to put a decade on anything. The best sounding Jazz I ever played was a 1965 jazz, sounded great (no use though, not enough strings). However, one of the worst jazzes I have ever played was a 1966 jazz - a squier affinity would have probably sounded bettter, anything would. The 66 was more expensive though as it was original, whereas the 65 had had a refret and had a replacement pot. And frankly what they sound like or play like is not really so important to their value.

 

 

There is no bubble, it is an appreciating asset, there are (and can be) only certain amounts of 60s basses, that number is going down, and the number of people with disposable income is going up, so they will keep appreciating. There are no shortage of bankers or stock brokers who have a display case for one.

I may be wrong but I don't think many vintage instruments are appreciating that much in value. They're certainly keeping pace with inflation, so they're probably a better bet than keeping money in the bank, but the heady days of the '90s and early 2000s are long gone, and I don't think the amount of disposable incomes are going up, especially among the younger demographic. I know of at least two players in the 55-70 demographic (neither of whom are lawyers/stockbrokers) with huge and valuable vintage guitar bass/collections, but I've not met any 40-55 year old musicians with any collection of vintage instruments. As for younger people, forget about it.

 

In my working life I've met many stockbrokers, lawyers, and a few dentists, doctors. I've never known any with vaults filled with pre-CBS Fenders or Alembics/Foderas on the walls. Perhaps there was a moment back in the '80s/'90s when a few ex-hippy turned corporate overlords did have such collections, but I suspect it's not much of thing any more. I also think the idea of masses of vintage instruments going to Japan for huge prices is outdated - I heard that a lot of the ones that did go there  a few decades ago are now returning to the states. 

[Reggaebass]

It seems to me that the value of the 60s and early 70s ones have increased quite a bit in the last 3 or even 2 years, and there’s less of them available as there was before ,especially in the uk , in the US they seem to be fetching high prices 

[tegs07]

10 minutes ago, Belka said:

I may be wrong but I don't think many vintage instruments are appreciating that much in value. They're certainly keeping pace with inflation, so they're probably a better bet than keeping money in the bank, but the heady days of the '90s and early 2000s are long gone, and I don't think the amount of disposable incomes are going up, especially among the younger demographic. I know of at least two players in the 55-70 demographic (neither of whom are lawyers/stockbrokers) with huge and valuable vintage guitar bass/collections, but I've not met any 40-55 year old musicians with any collection of vintage instruments. As for younger people, forget about it.

 

In my working life I've met many stockbrokers, lawyers, and a few dentists, doctors. I've never known any with vaults filled with pre-CBS Fenders or Alembics/Foderas on the walls. Perhaps there was a moment back in the '80s/'90s when a few ex-hippy turned corporate overlords did have such collections, but I suspect it's not much of thing any more. I also think the idea of masses of vintage instruments going to Japan for huge prices is outdated - I heard that a lot of the ones that did go there  a few decades ago are now returning to the states. 

At the moment the purchasing power of cash is plummeting as inflation is starting to let rip. There are various thoughts around how long this will last but at the rate it is occurring combined with the huge debt levels in western society the blunt tool of (significant) interest rate rises is being delayed which IMO is a big mistake.

The stock market is volatile, crypo is wildly unpredictable, property is wobbling even gold after some significant years of gains is looking uncertain. 

Against all this uncertainty physical assets whether art, wine, cars or guitars may well tempt those looking for a home for their cash. Nothing is certain but the safe havens of the past look very uncertain.

[wateroftyne]

I’m seeing asking prices go nuts at the moment. Whether they’re fetching those prices is another thing.

[LukeFRC]

15 minutes ago, Belka said:

I may be wrong but I don't think many vintage instruments are appreciating that much in value.

Shot up loads in last few years - though some of that I think is down to macro economic stuff as much as anything. If a brand new stingray is now £3k that kinda makes sense. 
 

I was thinking about buying a 60s fender two or three years back… I didn’t because…

- prices were starting to mental and I quickly couldn’t afford it 

- I was spotting a lot of behaviour that I would file under “dishonest”… eg I almost bought a refin ‘65P from someone I could trust (and should have really, we were only £200 apart), it popped up again a few months later as ‘all original’ at triple the price… I almost bought another off an old guy on eBay with a hideous refin and really distinct damage on the headstock… a few weeks later that neck appeared on reverb on another body as “all original” 

- and the top end of the market will always have value and collectorability, also there will be also great sounding instruments which will have value because of they sound great… but I was reading an article the other day about people leaving expensive antique furniture to family in their wills and it ending up getting binned… because the following generations live in smaller houses and flats - the things that one generation values isn’t necessarily what the next will - and you are banking on millennials and younger not only playing bass but also valuing the 60s golden years of their grandparents generation as worth the extra over something made new. Again the top end of the market won’t be affected but I don’t think you can gaurentee values are going to rise constantly- (esp when all the generation meantioned with massive guitar collections start dying and all those guitars come onto the market…) 
 

[Burns-bass]

23 minutes ago, wateroftyne said:

I’m seeing asking prices go nuts at the moment. Whether they’re fetching those prices is another thing.

This is a good point. I remember chatting with ATB about a 64 jazz and was offered it at £3k under the asking price, so there is wiggle room there.
 

Same happened when I bought a pre cbs precision from David Pym, he knocked off 20% for a deal. I don’t know about Andy Baxter, but the reputable dealers are all good guys trying to make a living and will do a deal.

 

I can’t explain the price rises, which are astronomical. It’s highly likely that those with vintage collections are buying more rather than new entrants to the market. When that’s the case, prices could fall rapidly… 

 

While I struggle to see guitars as investments comparable with other assets, I’ve never lost money with a vintage Fender bass.

[weezergeezer]

34 minutes ago, Reggaebass said:

It seems to me that the value of the 60s and early 70s ones have increased quite a bit in the last 3 or even 2 years, and there’s less of them available as there was before ,especially in the uk , in the US they seem to be fetching high prices 

The US is the place to sell also Sweden and Norway..many living in those nations have large disposable income..even 1980s are becoming collectable now I believe

 Im a regular vistor to Norway most months.. one of the richest countries in the world

 

[weezergeezer]

15 hours ago, OliverBlackman said:

Except for one fretless bass I’m very lucky to own I have two budget basses which are fine for now. Hopefully the bubble will burst with vintage fenders but folk have being saying that will happen for over a decade.

probably been saying that since 1965 .. 😉

[Burns-bass]

1 minute ago, weezergeezer said:

probably been saying that since 1965 .. 😉

They weren’t vintage then, just basses. 
 

Funny how rock gods like Clapton and Gimlour don’t care too much for their old ones.

[OliverBlackman]

1 hour ago, Belka said:

I agree with you. Especially with regard to Jazz basses. The repro Precisions tend to be closer to the originals, but every vintage style modern Jazz I've tried has not sounded that close to the actual vintage ones. For some reason this seems to be more the case with '70s style instruments. Personally I think the main factor is modern manufacturers getting the pickups wrong - they wind them far too hot these days compared to the originals.

Surely the pickups would be easy to replicate though? Alleva Coppollo and Moollon are supposed to sound close but from clips I’ve heard it’s not been right to my ears. But then some of the upgraded pickups in a vintage bass, such as early EMGs still sound vintage to me.
 

My thinking is it was the wood source. These days a lot of the wood used for guitars is from sustainable forests in Asia where the trees aren’t as old as now protected forests in US, South America, or Canada. Where was the wood Fender used from in the early days, is it still available? The difference in climates and age will affect the density of the wood.

[miles'tone]

8 minutes ago, Burns-bass said:

 

Funny how rock gods like Clapton and Gimlour don’t care too much for their old ones.

Might not be the guitars fault there though.  Maybe they were a too real reminder of the people they used to be and the lifestyles lived then, that they prefer to move on and live the lessons learned in the now?

[Reggaebass]

22 minutes ago, Burns-bass said:

Funny how rock gods like Clapton and Gimlour don’t care too much for their old ones.

Perhaps they do ,but given the prices they can get by selling them at auctions because of who they are is so high they sell them 

[Belka]

13 minutes ago, OliverBlackman said:

Surely the pickups would be easy to replicate though? Alleva Coppollo and Moollon are supposed to sound close but from clips I’ve heard it’s not been right to my ears. But then some of the upgraded pickups in a vintage bass, such as early EMGs still sound vintage to me.
 

My thinking is it was the wood source. These days a lot of the wood used for guitars is from sustainable forests in Asia where the trees aren’t as old as now protected forests in US, South America, or Canada. Where was the wood Fender used from in the early days, is it still available? The difference in climates and age will affect the density of the wood.

I think that wood also plays a role of course. For pre-CBS, the Brazilian rosewood is a lot denser than the Indian which is used on repros. Also, outside of Musikraft and the Fender custom shop, no-one will make a 7.25 radius laminate rosewood maple neck -they all tend to be slab. I don't think quality alder or maple is hard to come by, although ash is getting rare. Also, regarding '70s Fenders, everyone wants light weight these days, but Northern/heavy ash was probably a key ingredient to that tone which no-one would want to touch these days.

 

I have heard that the wire and magnets used today differ in composition from the stuff used in the '60s/'70s/'80s, even though it's described the same way (alnico 5, heavy formvar, etc.). But modern builders wind their pickups hotter. 60-64 or so, as well as 76-82 Jazz bass pickups were typically wound at around 8-8.5k. 65-75 are lower, around 6-6.5k. Most modern 'repro' J pickups are typically around 9-11k. Also, the 'vintage' heavy formvar wire so many people talk about was NEVER used on Jazz basses - only Precisions, and even then only up to a certain year in the early '60s. 

 

So when you see Jazz bass pickups with heavy formvar wire wound to 11.5k described as vintage....nah.   

[Woodinblack]

3 hours ago, Belka said:

I may be wrong but I don't think many vintage instruments are appreciating that much in value.

 

In the last 2 years, I guess since just before the pandemic, prices on vintage or desirable instruments have rocketed up. I agree overall they haven't gone up much more than inflation but something has changed again.

 

3 hours ago, Belka said:

They're certainly keeping pace with inflation, so they're probably a better bet than keeping money in the bank, but the heady days of the '90s and early 2000s are long gone, and I don't think the amount of disposable incomes are going up, especially among the younger demographic.

 

No the amount of disposable income has plummeted among the younger demographic, but it is not them that are buying vintage fenders, it is much older people who are doing it, and that disposable income has increased. Young are doing what they always were. They are buying 5-10 year old basses like they always have, just that a 10 year old bass is now 2010, whereas a 10 year old bass when I started playing was a 68-70s. 

When I first started playing the one thing everyone would say is not to buy and old fender (ie, 70s) because they were terrible. They weren't, some were ok, some were bad some were great. 

 

4 hours ago, BlueMoon said:

Maybe not in the next few years...............but, overall I agree with the market conditions you summarise.

 

At the moment and over the pandemic, a lot of people have got a lot better off, although the overal amount of money people earn hasn't moved at all, the top has really accelerated away from the bottom, the gap between the top 10% and the bottom 10% grew a lot.

[Owen]

3 hours ago, weezergeezer said:

Norway...... one of the richest countries in the world

 

But they are a high tax country. I do not understand, we have been told that does not work. Surely our government would not lie to us?

[Burns-bass]

3 hours ago, Reggaebass said:

Perhaps they do ,but given the prices they can get by selling them at auctions because of who they are is so high they sell them 

They’ve done wonderful things with the money. Apparently Claptons Blackie Strat was borderline unplayable to anyone but him. 
 

Does Gilmour sound like himself on a modern Strat? Yep. 
 

It’s all in the head.

[tegs07]

12 minutes ago, Burns-bass said:

They’ve done wonderful things with the money. Apparently Claptons Blackie Strat was borderline unplayable to anyone but him. 
 

Does Gilmour sound like himself on a modern Strat? Yep. 
 

It’s all in the head.

If I had to perform to 100 thousand plus people I would do-whatever made me feel confident. If it’s a load of mumbo jumbo about a vintage fender, a pick that I had always used since the age of 4 or even a lucky rabbits foot then that’s fine.

I don’t think choices always have to stand up to scientific scrutiny to be valid and where classic cars and vintage instruments are involved all logic goes out of the window. It’s a lot about heart and mojo. 

[miles'tone]

5 hours ago, tegs07 said:

 

I don’t think choices always have to stand up to scientific scrutiny to be valid and where classic cars and vintage instruments are involved all logic goes out of the window. It’s a lot about heart and mojo. 

I bought my '65 P around Easter time this year and it was a decision based on scientific facts (kinda), the bass is oozing mojo and it addressed a long term longing of the heart...

The P sound is the sound that's always been calling out to me, and my two fave P players I've long admired are Scott Thunes and Paz Lenchantin (I may have banged on about these two before...apologies if I'm repeating myself. Highly likely! ☺) both of whom play '65 Precisions which they've nearly worn to death. Always wanted one simply because of this fact. No way could I ever afford one though. A pipe dream. 

I'll keep this bit short...

Had a terrible last 12 months. Very sad and unforseen family circumstance occurred. I found myself looking into a brief yet present window of opportunity. 

I saw the bass I always wanted online. Bought it for more than I ever thought I'd spend on a bass, yet it was also for the least amount I had seen one going for in the modern day. I made the most out of a crappy situation. 

The bass is everything I hoped it to be and in 20 or 30 years (if I'm lucky) when I pop it, my kids can sell it and go halves. It should be worth much more by then and hopefully that will cover everything I've spent on my bass geekery over the years and then some! (That was the science bit 😄)

Made sense to me and I convinced myself at the time...

Edited June 3, 2022 by miles'tone
Typo

[Burns-bass]

32 minutes ago, miles'tone said:

I bought my '65 P around Easter time this year and it was a decision based on scientific facts (kinda), the bass is oozing mojo and it addressed a long term longing of the heart...

The P sound is the sound that's always been calling out to me, and my two fave P players I've long admired are Scott Thunes and Paz Lenchantin (I may have banged on about these two before...apologies if I'm repeating myself. Highly likely! ☺) both of whom play '65 Precisions which they've nearly worn to death. Always wanted one simply because of this fact. No way could I ever afford one though. A pipe dream. 

I'll keep this bit short...

Had a terrible last 12 months. Very sad and unforseen family circumstance occurred. I found myself looking into a brief yet present window of opportunity. 

I saw the bass I always wanted online. Bought it for more than I ever thought I'd spend on a bass, yet it was also for the least amount I had seen one going for in the modern day. I made the most out of a chappy situation. 

The bass is everything I hoped it to be and in 20 or 30 years (if I'm lucky) when I pop it, my kids can sell it and go halves. It should be worth much more by then and hopefully that will cover everything I've spent on my bass geekery over the years and then some! (That was the science bit 😄)

Made sense to me and I convinced myself at the time...

Lovely story. I might moan a bit but I have a 66 Jazz that I bought for £2500 after 4 years of saving. Recently valued at £8.5, and won’t ever leave my side. I’ve told my wife I’ll leave details of where to sell it when I die so she doesn’t just donate it to the charity shop and my kids miss out.

[Reggaebass]

I’ve been looking at some 1960s precision’s lately and I know the neck size changed from a C to a B in 67 ,  are all the C neck’s 44mm , was there any variation ? , I’m ok with anything up to 42 so I’m wondering if the 44 will be too much