Do different keys really have different characteristics

[Nail Soup]

I have heard stuff like "such and such a key is meloncholic" and so on.

Is there really a difference between the keys?

Well Major and Minor I understand. And that some keys suit the tuning of the instrument.

For example: a folk instrumental on a six string in C. Then in D using the same fingering patterns, but a capo at the second fret. Surely won't make much difference to the character.

 

So where did the idea come from? Any truth in it?

[Nail Soup]

Example:

C major - Completely pure. Its character is: innocence, simplicity, naïvety, children's talk.

C minor - Declaration of love and at the same time the lament of unhappy love. All languishing, longing, sighing of the love-sick soul lies in this key.

Db major - A leering key, degenerating into grief and rapture. It cannot laugh, but it can smile; it cannot howl, but it can at least grimace its crying.--Consequently only unusual characters and feelings can be brought out in this key.

D major - The key of triumph, of Hallejuahs, of war-cries, of victory-rejoicing. Thus, the inviting symphonies, the marches, holiday songs and heaven-rejoicing choruses are set in this key.

D minor - Melancholy womanliness, the spleen and humours brood.

D# minor - Feelings of the anxiety of the soul's deepest distress, of brooding despair, of blackest depresssion, of the most gloomy condition of the soul. Every fear, every hesitation of the shuddering heart, breathes out of horrible D# minor. If ghosts could speak, their speech would approximate this key.

Eb major - The key of love, of devotion, of intimate conversation with God.

E major - Noisy shouts of joy, laughing pleasure and not yet complete, full delight lies in E Major.

F major - Complaisance & calm.

F minor - Deep depression, funereal lament, groans of misery and longing for the grave.

F# major - Triumph over difficulty, free sigh of relief utered when hurdles are surmounted; echo of a soul which has fiercely struggled and finally conquered lies in all uses of this key.

F# minor - A gloomy key: it tugs at passion as a dog biting a dress. Resentment and discontent are its language.

G major - Everything rustic, idyllic and lyrical, every calm and satisfied passion, every tender gratitude for true friendship and faithful love,--in a word every gentle and peaceful emotion of the heart is correctly expressed by this key.

G minor - Discontent, uneasiness, worry about a failed scheme; bad-tempered gnashing of teeth; in a word: resentment and dislike.

Ab major - Key of the grave. Death, grave, putrefaction, judgment, eternity lie in its radius.

Ab minor - Grumbler, heart squeezed until it suffocates; wailing lament, difficult struggle; in a word, the color of this key is everything struggling with difficulty.

A major - This key includes declarations of innocent love, satisfaction with one's state of affairs; hope of seeing one's beloved again when parting; youthful cheerfulness and trust in God.

A minor - Pious womanliness and tenderness of character.

Bb major - Cheerful love, clear conscience, hope aspiration for a better world.

Bb minor - A quaint creature, often dressed in the garment of night. It is somewhat surly and very seldom takes on a pleasant countenance. Mocking God and the world; discontented with itself and with everything; preparation for suicide sounds in this key.

B major - Strongly coloured, announcing wild passions, composed from the most glaring coulors. Anger, rage, jealousy, fury, despair and every burden of the heart lies in its sphere.

B minor - This is as it were the key of patience, of calm awaiting ones's fate and of submission to divine dispensation.

 (https://www.pitchperfecttuning.com/post/2019/07/17/characteristics-of-musical-keys)

 

Edited August 4, 2020 by Nail Soup

[franzbassist]

 

[Woodinblack]

29 minutes ago, Nail Soup said:

I have heard stuff like "such and such a key is meloncholic" and so on.

Is there really a difference between the keys?

..

So where did the idea come from? Any truth in it?

There was truth to it back in the day*. Now we have an even tempered scale, meaning the differences between each note is the same, no there is no difference (even d minor isn't really the saddest key). But back in the day, the notes were difference so there really was a difference between the scales.

The day being about 200 years ago. Since the beginning of the 1800s even temprement has been the norm. Before that, anyones choice. Stuff really did sound different

Edited August 4, 2020 by Woodinblack

[Nail Soup]

3 minutes ago, Woodinblack said:

Now we have an even tempered scale, meaning the differences between each note is the same

But before the even tempered scale, wasn't the mathematical realtionship between say the root and a fifth the same in every key (3:2 or something)?

[Dad3353]

35 minutes ago, Nail Soup said:

Example:

C major - Completely pure. Its character is: innocence, simplicity, naïvety, children's talk.

C minor - Declaration of love and at the same time the lament of unhappy love. All languishing, longing, sighing of the love-sick soul lies in this key.

Db major - A leering key, degenerating into grief and rapture. It cannot laugh, but it can smile; it cannot howl, but it can at least grimace its crying.--Consequently only unusual characters and feelings can be brought out in this key.

D major - The key of triumph, of Hallejuahs, of war-cries, of victory-rejoicing. Thus, the inviting symphonies, the marches, holiday songs and heaven-rejoicing choruses are set in this key.

D minor - Melancholy womanliness, the spleen and humours brood.

D# minor - Feelings of the anxiety of the soul's deepest distress, of brooding despair, of blackest depresssion, of the most gloomy condition of the soul. Every fear, every hesitation of the shuddering heart, breathes out of horrible D# minor. If ghosts could speak, their speech would approximate this key.

Eb major - The key of love, of devotion, of intimate conversation with God.

E major - Noisy shouts of joy, laughing pleasure and not yet complete, full delight lies in E Major.

F major - Complaisance & calm.

F minor - Deep depression, funereal lament, groans of misery and longing for the grave.

F# major - Triumph over difficulty, free sigh of relief utered when hurdles are surmounted; echo of a soul which has fiercely struggled and finally conquered lies in all uses of this key.

F# minor - A gloomy key: it tugs at passion as a dog biting a dress. Resentment and discontent are its language.

G major - Everything rustic, idyllic and lyrical, every calm and satisfied passion, every tender gratitude for true friendship and faithful love,--in a word every gentle and peaceful emotion of the heart is correctly expressed by this key.

G minor - Discontent, uneasiness, worry about a failed scheme; bad-tempered gnashing of teeth; in a word: resentment and dislike.

Ab major - Key of the grave. Death, grave, putrefaction, judgment, eternity lie in its radius.

Ab minor - Grumbler, heart squeezed until it suffocates; wailing lament, difficult struggle; in a word, the color of this key is everything struggling with difficulty.

A major - This key includes declarations of innocent love, satisfaction with one's state of affairs; hope of seeing one's beloved again when parting; youthful cheerfulness and trust in God.

A minor - Pious womanliness and tenderness of character.

Bb major - Cheerful love, clear conscience, hope aspiration for a better world.

Bb minor - A quaint creature, often dressed in the garment of night. It is somewhat surly and very seldom takes on a pleasant countenance. Mocking God and the world; discontented with itself and with everything; preparation for suicide sounds in this key.

B major - Strongly coloured, announcing wild passions, composed from the most glaring coulors. Anger, rage, jealousy, fury, despair and every burden of the heart lies in its sphere.

B minor - This is as it were the key of patience, of calm awaiting ones's fate and of submission to divine dispensation.

 (https://www.pitchperfecttuning.com/post/2019/07/17/characteristics-of-musical-keys)

 

My contribution (Disclaimer : I'm a drummer...) ...

[Woodinblack]

52 minutes ago, Nail Soup said:

But before the even tempered scale, wasn't the mathematical realtionship between say the root and a fifth the same in every key (3:2 or something)?

The relationship between any two notes can only be the same if the scale is even tempered. If it isn't, it means the relationship between a specific interval in a different scale has to be different. Hence why different keys in olden days had a different feel. Which is the reason that compositions were in specific keys. 

When it comes to even tempered, it isnt exactly in tune, like 3:2 is, that would be a frequency of 1.5 times the original. However, in even tempered it is 1.49831. ie, it is just off. All the notes are just off, and as a result, nothing is quite in tune, but nothing is very out of tune either. And more importantly, every key is the same off tune.

Sadly audio frequencies weren't designed to be nicely divided by 12.

Edited August 4, 2020 by Woodinblack

[stewblack]

There most certainly is a difference. D is the key our singer can sing in. 

[gjones]

I can't quantify why the key, that a piece of music is played in, makes a difference but I'm sure there is a difference.

Some songs sound tighter in different keys, some songs sound bigger, some songs sound more aggressive.

I refuse to play anything in F major.

[stewblack]

6 minutes ago, gjones said:

refuse to play anything in F major

I love this 

[Silvia Bluejay]

1 hour ago, Nail Soup said:

Ab minor - Grumbler, heart squeezed until it suffocates; wailing lament, difficult struggle; in a word, the color of this key is everything struggling with difficulty.

Blimey, yes I know it's got a ridiculous number of flats in its signature, but maybe the above is a slight exaggeration?

I do get the equal temperament argument, but I think what each key conveys now and used to convey before equal temperament is a product of tradition more than actual fact. Think about, say, the Middle Ages - if it became customary for composers of religious hymns to use a certain key to express a certain feeling, that choice would have been influential on music outside the church too; minstrels would have deliberately used a different key in their song to express a different feeling. And so on.

[Silvia Bluejay]

10 minutes ago, gjones said:

I refuse to play anything in F major.

And yet, its relative Dmin is a common disco key, lots of fun to play IMO...

[dmccombe7]

No expert in this by any means but i've played songs in different keys from original and something just doesn't work. The song loses something. I've never quite understood why that happens.

Dave

[Woodinblack]

3 minutes ago, Silvia Bluejay said:

I do get the equal temperament argument, but I think what each key conveys now and used to convey before equal temperament is a product of tradition more than actual fact.

Well, what it conveys now is nothing, it just changes the pitch. What it conveyed before was different. How you related to that and how you felt about it, obviously that is interpretation.

3 minutes ago, Silvia Bluejay said:

Think about, say, the Middle Ages - if it became customary for composers of religious hymns to use a certain key to express a certain feeling, that choice would have been influential on music outside the church too; minstrels would have deliberately used a different key in their song to express a different feeling. And so on.

Using certainly keys and intervals in the middle ages would have been enough to get you strung up, so you didn't do it to express some feelings, or at least not where the church was powerful!

And obviously how the key feels depends what key the instrument is tuned to. That list up there of moods were playing keys in an instrument tuned to the key of C, ie, a harpsichord. If that instrument had been tuned to D flat, then all the moods would shift by one.

Luckily with the bass, the frequencies are low enough to not cause us issues, but you certainly notice it if you ever try to tune a guitar, especially via harmonics. However it means you can do interesting things with tuning, like tuning to a key for a song will give you a much nicer tone, but then means you cant play other things.

[wateroftyne]

4 minutes ago, dmccombe7 said:

No expert in this by any means but i've played songs in different keys from original and something just doesn't work. The song loses something. I've never quite understood why that happens.

Dave

Maybe your brain is just expecting to hear it in the original key.

[Woodinblack]

Just now, wateroftyne said:

Maybe your brain is just expecting to hear it in the original key.

Its that, its just higher or lower than you want. There is no difference in key in a current western scale.

[gjones]

8 minutes ago, Silvia Bluejay said:

And yet, its relative Dmin is a common disco key, lots of fun to play IMO...

I don't mind playing F minor but in major I just run out of frets, if I play it on the E string (I also have a rule that I don't play open strings) and it sounds wimpy on the A string. 

I could play in F major on my 5 string but that would be too sensible 

[Silvia Bluejay]

4 minutes ago, Woodinblack said:

Using certainly keys and intervals in the middle ages would have been enough to get you strung up, so you didn't do it to express some feelings, or at least not where the church was powerful!

The tritone being a case in point, and yes, I'm a metal fan.

[Woodinblack]

This is a nice example of Just tuning which is one of the original ways of tuning

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Daw93bRHe4Y

 

[itu]

Note: this is not only piano related thing. Piano is used as an example, and many pianos have been used and harmed to get actual results.

Although we use the tempered scale, you can not tune a piano dead straight. It can not be. When you listen to a piano in different keys, it sounds, yes, different. You have to take this into account with accompanying instruments. 440 Hz is fine, but how about the harmonics? Second should be 1760 Hz, but you have to add 35 cents to make it sound right. This is not exactly tempered anymore.

There are physical facts, harmonics, overtones and their behaviour, that tempering can not put aside. This is one reason for sound differences.

Another thing is to tune an instrument to some other reference, like to baroque A (415 Hz).

[itu]

By the way, a bass should be tuned slightly lower to sound exact with bigger bands. As an example my Peterson SAM tuner has adjustments for different instruments, like the bass!

Yes we are talking about cents, but they do a difference.

[miles'tone]

F# is the stand out key out for me. It's the note my ears ring in. I can actually tune my bass off it's drone in a quiet room.

[bassace]

10 hours ago, stewblack said:

There most certainly is a difference. D is the key our singer can sing in. 

Our singer can sing in all keys.

And usually does.

[Burns-bass]

9 hours ago, gjones said:

I don't mind playing F minor but in major I just run out of frets, if I play it on the E string (I also have a rule that I don't play open strings) and it sounds wimpy on the A string. 

I could play in F major on my 5 string but that would be too sensible 

I love the rule that you don’t play open strings.

[PaulWarning]

I'm not sure keys have different characteristics, but they can certainly alter the feel of the song, we've dropped some songs because we had to change the key so much for the singer to be able to sing them they just didn't sound right, but that's more to do with the singers vocal range than the change of key, bit like Led Zep songs don't sound right if sung by somebody with a baritone  range