Do different keys really have different characteristics

[Woodinblack]

6 minutes ago, PaulWarning said:

I'm not sure keys have different characteristics, but they can certainly alter the feel of the song,

Yeh, there were a few songs that we dropped for our singer, but in the end it just sounded a bit lifeless that low, so one we put back up for him to struggle with, the other one we dropped.

[Leonard Smalls]

I dropped the bourgeois and sheeplike notion of keys long ago as they stifle true creativity and are divisive and discriminatory against the frequencies not in them.

All frequencies are equal!

And I've discovered that this approach is perfect for our times, as any gigs undertaken would be absolutely socially-distanced.

[alyctes]

I think it still does make a difference, for hardware instruments only (doesn't apply to synths).

The resonant frequencies of the hardware will be different depending on the individual instrument - mostly on how it's tuned.  So you'd expect the subtle effects, which most people can't consciously hear, to vary depending on key.

[Dad3353]

I'd like to see a rational explanation as to why playing in an Aeolian mode, and so the self-same notes and frequencies as a Major scale, changes things so much. 

...

[bassace]

2 hours ago, Leonard Smalls said:

I dropped the bourgeois and sheeplike notion of keys long ago as they stifle true creativity and are divisive and discriminatory against the frequencies not in them.

All frequencies are equal!

And I've discovered that this approach is perfect for our times, as any gigs undertaken would be absolutely socially-distanced.

And flat keys matter.

[Happy Jack]

50 minutes ago, bassace said:

And flat keys matter.

But on a piano the only keys that are flat are the white ones ...

 

[fretmeister]

My big band plays "Gimme some lovin'" in F

It feels wrong. 

 

But I do wonder if that is because I've had decades of playing the Blues Brothers version and it's just wrong to me. Some of the kids in the band never heard any previous version. I also wonder if the audience even notice when they haven't got a long standing frame of reference.

 

We also do "Superstition" in B flat and that really makes me want to hit someone!  

[paul_c2]

Firstly, I know about Equal Temprament - before then, there definitely was a difference in the keys if played on certain instruments. Others played the just intonation for that key, which would be slightly different to the note in another key etc.

Secondly, there is this thing called "tessitura" which is basically, an instrument has a "happy" range; above and below that, it can probably still sound the notes but its a markedly different character. For example, a piece in (say) Eb on a trombone might be particularly suited to it and the player's range. Put it up a fourth into Ab (or worse....a tritone up, to A) and it will be much more different to play, some bits might need to come down an octave etc.

Thirdly, there is not an even distribution of all pieces of music played/heard today, across all keys. Some music seems to fall into more commonly found keys, and some keys are rarely used. This means, if/when you hear a piece in a rare key (for example Ab, or C# minor, or Db blues, etc etc) it sounds a little bit more distinctive than otherwise.

[EliasMooseblaster]

14 hours ago, stewblack said:

There most certainly is a difference. D is the key our singer can sing in. 

Perhaps there is some truth within this jest: whilst the arguments behind "well-tempered" instruments would suggest that this idea belongs in a similar bin to those who believe the cosmic justification for tuning to A432, some keys will probably sound a bit different due to the voicing of the instrument. Monsieur Black's singer's voice is suited to the key of D - perhaps, like myself, he is limited by his range. (I know if I have to sing something in F or G, I start to consider whether to transpose, or whether it would sound terrible an octave down...)

But similarly, a lot of guitar riffs carry the clout that they do because they make use of the power in the guitar's lower register. The diabolical motif from Black Sabbath (originally in G) could easily be shunted up or down a tone without losing its impact. But imagine a riff which pedals the open E but is too high for the singer: transposing down for their benefit means moving up the guitar neck and into a more middling register (drop tunings notwithstanding).

I think what I'm rambling towards is that different keys will sound different, up to a point, and in a way that's specific to certain instruments: the 4-string bassists may groan when the BL calls for Superstition in Eb, but the horn players will breathe a sigh of relief. And the keyboard player and drummer will just be looking at each other wondering what all the fuss is about.

[fretmeister]

1 minute ago, EliasMooseblaster said:

Perhaps there is some truth within this jest: whilst the arguments behind "well-tempered" instruments would suggest that this idea belongs in a similar bin to those who believe the cosmic justification for tuning to A432, some keys will probably sound a bit different due to the voicing of the instrument. Monsieur Black's singer's voice is suited to the key of D - perhaps, like myself, he is limited by his range. (I know if I have to sing something in F or G, I start to consider whether to transpose, or whether it would sound terrible an octave down...)

But similarly, a lot of guitar riffs carry the clout that they do because they make use of the power in the guitar's lower register. The diabolical motif from Black Sabbath (originally in G) could easily be shunted up or down a tone without losing its impact. But imagine a riff which pedals the open E but is too high for the singer: transposing down for their benefit means moving up the guitar neck and into a more middling register (drop tunings notwithstanding).

I think what I'm rambling towards is that different keys will sound different, up to a point, and in a way that's specific to certain instruments: the 4-string bassists may groan when the BL calls for Superstition in Eb, but the horn players will breathe a sigh of relief. And the keyboard player and drummer will just be looking at each other wondering what all the fuss is about.

This is exactly why we play in not-original keys. A lot of our horn players are young students.

[EliasMooseblaster]

4 minutes ago, fretmeister said:

This is exactly why we play in not-original keys. A lot of our horn players are young students.

I wish more guitarists showed your level of consideration. Having tried to learn the sax myself, I always feel for the horn players who turn up to jam nights and are expected to play everything in E or A because some of the guitarists are too precious to bring a chuffing capo with them!

[Trueno]

I think the young horn players should practise more. I played sax semi-pro for years and played in whatever key was required. The singer should sing in whatever key they feel comfortable with.

I've never actually met any horn players who complained about the key... and I've met a lot of embarrassingly young sax players who played better than me.

[Swaffle88]

D# minor - Feelings of the anxiety of the soul's deepest distress, of brooding despair, of blackest depresssion, of the most gloomy condition of the soul. Every fear, every hesitation of the shuddering heart, breathes out of horrible D# minor. If ghosts could speak, their speech would approximate this key.
 

...jeez

👻

(I’m looking for an up beat song in D#minor now) 

Edited August 5, 2020 by Swaffle88

[fretmeister]

26 minutes ago, Trueno said:

I think the young horn players should practise more. I played sax semi-pro for years and played in whatever key was required. The singer should sing in whatever key they feel comfortable with.

I've never actually met any horn players who complained about the key... and I've met a lot of embarrassingly young sax players who played better than me.

Some of them are 8-10 years old. Grade 2-3.

The band is for experience of ensemble playing and listening to band mates. Not academic study. They get that with their individual teachers.

If the youngest ones walked in and saw new key sigs they have never seen in their individual lessons they'd walk straight out again. We find a way to get them playing, even if we have to give them the 4th part and tell them to only play the first note of the bar until they get comfortable with trying the 2nd note.

They join the ensemble as nervous wrecks and within 3 months the confidence is already going up and they start asking for more fun / difficult things to play.

The 16-18 year olds are more than capable of playing in any key but they are there for fun, having been there for 10 years themselves. They tend to be in county level bands as well, some of them aiming for a conservatoire place.

 

It's a fantastic band and I'm constantly amazed I get to play with them. I got press-ganged when the actual bass teacher quit and moved away. I was given the book and 30 mins notice for my first rehearsal with them. 

[paul_c2]

51 minutes ago, Trueno said:

I think the young horn players should practise more. I played sax semi-pro for years and played in whatever key was required. The singer should sing in whatever key they feel comfortable with.

I've never actually met any horn players who complained about the key... and I've met a lot of embarrassingly young sax players who played better than me.

The issue isn't so much lack of practice. Its that some instruments, are simply different to play in different keys, to the extent that almost all players "can't do" something in one key, in another. 

I know you said horn but I'm assuming you meant saxophone. In Bb (on a tenor), its really easy to do a big 1 octave slide up to a high note - and it helps that C written 2 octaves above middle C (but sounds the Bb above it, on a tenor) is a really punchy note that can cut through. Rewrite to key of D, and that run up has 4 sharps in it - on a sax that means side keys need to be used, far more awkward to finger. Then the top note is E which is definitely weaker until you're a good player and can control that note AND blast it out.

Similarly, with 'horns' such as a trumpet, they will have nice keys and nasty keys to play in, although with only 3 valves, there aren't so many combinations and the awkward changes can be practised. 

If you actually meant (French) horn, they can do weird things involving keys which I could explain but nobody (except another horn player!) would understand it!

Edited August 5, 2020 by paul_c2

[Dan Dare]

7 hours ago, Leonard Smalls said:

All frequencies are equal!

But some are more equal than others.

Edited August 5, 2020 by Dan Dare

[Nail Soup]

8 hours ago, Woodinblack said:

Yeh, there were a few songs that we dropped for our singer, but in the end it just sounded a bit lifeless that low, so one we put back up for him to struggle with, the other one we dropped

I used to go to a (sadly defuct) local folk session. The host sometimes would tell a singer that they were "singing into their boots" and request them to move the capo up two frets. Most often did sound better after that.

BTW - the host was a cheeky-chappy kind of guy who could say that kind of stuff without causing offence.

[YeastieB]

On 04/08/2020 at 22:49, Woodinblack said:

This is a nice example of Just tuning which is one of the original ways of tuning

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Daw93bRHe4Y

 

Thanks for that, explains why I sometimes think the B string on the quitar is out of tune when the tuner says no.

[Woodinblack]

4 minutes ago, YeastieB said:

Thanks for that, explains why I sometimes think the B string on the quitar is out of tune when the tuner says no.

The B string on a guitar is always out of tune, it is the main problem of a guitar!

[paul_5]

17 minutes ago, Woodinblack said:

The B string on a guitar is always out of tune, it is the main problem of a guitar!

That and the G string.

[Elfrasho]

open string chords on a guitar have very different feels. A song starting in Em sounds and feels very different to a song in Am for example.  It's not the key though, its the orchestration. 

[paul_c2]

12 minutes ago, Elfrasho said:

open string chords on a guitar have very different feels. A song starting in Em sounds and feels very different to a song in Am for example.  It's not the key though, its the orchestration. 

Its not orchestration, its the notes which are sounded which are different, and not transposed. For example if you play barred chord A at the 5th fret, its lowest note is A and the top note is A. If you play an open A chord, its lowest note is E (if you play that E....but then its an inversion!!) and the highest note is E (the 5th of A, not the root).

Put simply, its chord voicing - but only of the top and bottom notes.

A decent guitarist will know lots of different ways of playing (eg) A major chord, of different voicings, or maybe the same/similar voicing but on different areas of the neck.  

[Elfrasho]

12 hours ago, paul_c2 said:

Its not orchestration, its the notes which are sounded which are different, and not transposed. For example if you play barred chord A at the 5th fret, its lowest note is A and the top note is A. If you play an open A chord, its lowest note is E (if you play that E....but then its an inversion!!) and the highest note is E (the 5th of A, not the root).

Put simply, its chord voicing - but only of the top and bottom notes.

A decent guitarist will know lots of different ways of playing (eg) A major chord, of different voicings, or maybe the same/similar voicing but on different areas of the neck.  

Aye, that's what I meant. 😂

[Nail Soup]

Doesn't sound any different, but some keys allow root note bassists to point at the audience and make other hand gestures with the fretting hand!

[leschirons]

All you need to know is that Dm is the saddest of all keys.

Nigel Tufnel 1984