musicman stingray...weak G...

[ebenezer]

I have a lovely 2014 stingray and unfortunately, unlike my 79 suffers from poor output on the G sting. Anyway i have read various posts about how to cure this problem, height of the pickup

adjusting magnets etc......I have bought an east mmsr preamp for the bass and wondered if it is worth using the existing pickup, or buying something else, maybe nordstrand blademan?  

[Doctor J]

Try adjusting the height of the pickup so the treble side is slightly higher than the bass side.

Is it a 2 or 3 band model? If 2 band, just remember that the bass control is boost only and, if you ramp it up you’re effectively cutting the mids, which is where your G string exists. If you’re doing the same on the EQ on your amp... bye bye G string.

The amount of Stingrays out there with stock pickups suggests the pickup design and manufacture is ok. I’ve owned a 2 band and a 3 band model, all stock, and never had this issue. I tend to bypass amp EQ on basses with a pre-amp. Try the same and see how you get on. Start with the bass control (on the bass) all the way down and the treble (which cuts and boosts despite no centre detent) around halfway. That’s the natural sound of the bass. See what the G string response is like and then start EQing to taste. It’ll let you know for sure where the G goes missing.

[mep]

This is a well documented issue here. I had the same problem many years ago. The thread is.

funkgod posted his solution on the thread. I have pasted it below to save reading through it. The solution to adjust the PUP poles. It work for me and i have never looked back. Good luck.

I have had 3 stingrays all with the same problem,
as artisan has said the two middle poles A and D are taller, so you cant tilt the pick up to the G string as it just makes the D louder.
NOT only this but if you look at the pick up from above you will see the G string is not in the middle of the pole it misses centre by a quarter so its only a quarter over the pole piece, so its not getting the middle of the field.

but reg the pole height there is a cure !! on the E.B. stingrays if you want to chance it....

take the pick up out you can leave it connected
THE 4 middle poles WILL push down, the 4 outside ones WONT push up because of the coil tensions at the ends, the middle ones will do it slow then when you put it back you can raise the pick up. JOB DONE
And remember you heared it here first folks, (or mabe not)

the main problem is the pick up is too large for the string spacing.

[ebenezer]

Cheers guys, I will tackle the pole pieces....I fancy a white cover anyways 👍..... looking at the pickup on my 79, the E and G pole pieces are almost level with the cover and the A and D only slightly raised.... Ernie Ball should have left them alone lol

[drTStingray]

Both the original Stingray 4 string design and the Ernie Ball post 1984 single pick up version have pole pieces which follow the contour of the fretboard (or fingerboard in the case of Fretless versions). 

Of course, if people change the height of the saddles so they are all equal in height from the bridge, this affects the height of the strings across the pick up. 

Ive never really experienced this problem unless using heavily scooped sounds, and frankly loss of the G string sound when standing in front of a rig in a band situation is not unique to Stingrays with over scooped sounds, and the worst examples I've come across have been Ibanez Soundgear basses - however this can be achieved with most basses, more particularly two pick up Jazz type basses, but even Precisions. 

The main thing on a Stingray is to watch your bass set up (especially saddle and pick up heights) and avoid double scooping everything by selecting scooped sounds on the bass and amp (and worse still in triplicate, on any PA arrangement).

I have yet to hear a weak G string issue on a recorded Stingray sound (I've regularly asked people who experience this issue to replicate it in a recording) indeed they are often very prominent - just watch some of the people on You Tube playing Stingrays and particularly Juliaplaysgroove, who usually uses an SBMM Sub. Her version of Hair by Graham Central Station shows how prominent the G string is, as it is on other recordings such as Dua Lipa. Similarly Fretless Stingrays - you never hear the issue recorded - in fact they have a great G string sound!! 

In addition to this, anyone who alters these basses (such as altering the pole piece heights) should be aware they are likely to reduce their resale value - unless returned to stock - I certainly wouldn't buy one unless it was in stock condition. However if it's your bass, do what you wish with it. 

The biggest variable on any bass is the strings - is string choice and gauge an issue as well as set up? 

Edited August 13, 2020 by drTStingray

[Musicman20]

15 hours ago, drTStingray said:

Both the original Stingray 4 string design and the Ernie Ball post 1984 single pick up version have pole pieces which follow the contour of the fretboard (or fingerboard in the case of Fretless versions). 

Of course, if people change the height of the saddles so they are all equal in height from the bridge, this affects the height of the strings across the pick up. 

Ive never really experienced this problem unless using heavily scooped sounds, and frankly loss of the G string sound when standing in front of a rig in a band situation is not unique to Stingrays with over scooped sounds, and the worst examples I've come across have been Ibanez Soundgear basses - however this can be achieved with most basses, more particularly two pick up Jazz type basses, but even Precisions. 

The main thing on a Stingray is to watch your bass set up (especially saddle and pick up heights) and avoid double scooping everything by selecting scooped sounds on the bass and amp (and worse still in triplicate, on any PA arrangement).

I have yet to hear a weak G string issue on a recorded Stingray sound (I've regularly asked people who experience this issue to replicate it in a recording) indeed they are often very prominent - just watch some of the people on You Tube playing Stingrays and particularly Juliaplaysgroove, who usually uses an SBMM Sub. Her version of Hair by Graham Central Station shows how prominent the G string is, as it is on other recordings such as Dua Lipa. Similarly Fretless Stingrays - you never hear the issue recorded - in fact they have a great G string sound!! 

In addition to this, anyone who alters these basses (such as altering the pole piece heights) should be aware they are likely to reduce their resale value - unless returned to stock - I certainly wouldn't buy one unless it was in stock condition. However if it's your bass, do what you wish with it. 

The biggest variable on any bass is the strings - is string choice and gauge an issue as well as set up? 

Agreed. I have a fair few Musicman instruments, and none of the basses have a weak G. Don't fiddle with the pickup magnets yet...try a few other options. 

[mep]

Yes, there are other avenues to explore first. I tried all the other options and posted about some of them. The only solution was to follow the pole piece one. I was ready to leave my Ray at home and not gig with it as it was so off putting. I hope you find a solution.

[ikay]

20 hours ago, drTStingray said:

The main thing on a Stingray is to watch your bass set up (especially saddle and pick up heights) and avoid double scooping everything by selecting scooped sounds on the bass and amp ...

+1 about avoiding an over-scooped EQ. The chart below of the freq response curve for a Stingray 2-band clearly shows the mid scoop with bass and treble maxed. The centre of this mid scoop falls around 200 to 800Hz which just happens to be G string territory.

The G string frequency ranges from 98Hz (open) to 196Hz (octave) to 392Hz (2 octave). In practice the first harmonic is usually more dominant than the fundamental so the 'effective fundamental' freq range of the G string is double this - ie. from 196Hz (open) to 784Hz (2 octave). Slap bang in the scoop.

The G string does of course generate other higher harmonics but these will sound thinner and weedier than the fundamental. 

Mind the scoop!

[ebenezer]

Just for information, I myself dislike a mid-scooped tone... I like things mid present and rarely boost the bass much above flat, so the weak g is not down to the way I eq the bass.

[40hz]

23 minutes ago, ebenezer said:

Just for information, I myself dislike a mid-scooped tone... I like things mid present and rarely boost the bass much above flat, so the weak g is not down to the way I eq the bass.

Same here, I always use a completely flat EQ. My old 2009 3-band Ray and my USA SUB both suffer/ed from a weak G string in a live context. I don't know the science behind it, but for me it's definitely there, it used to frustrate me a lot on gigs as I could never hear or feel the pops on that string.

[ebenezer]

Cheers 40hz, going to try lowering the A and D pole pieces to lower their output, failing that, i think a nordstrand blademan may be on the cards.

[Doctor J]

How is the balance between your E and A strings? If you think pushing the magnets down will affect the balance between the G and other strings then, surely, you will also affect the balance between the E and other strings in the same way, no? Do you not end up with an E string which drowns out the G still but also the other two strings?

[mep]

I can assure you the E string will not be a problem after pushing the middle pole pieces. You can always lower that side if required.

Edited August 15, 2020 by mep

[Nivagues]

On ‎15‎/‎08‎/‎2020 at 01:15, ikay said:

+1 about avoiding an over-scooped EQ. The chart below of the freq response curve for a Stingray 2-band clearly shows the mid scoop with bass and treble maxed. The centre of this mid scoop falls around 200 to 800Hz which just happens to be G string territory.

The G string frequency ranges from 98Hz (open) to 196Hz (octave) to 392Hz (2 octave). In practice the first harmonic is usually more dominant than the fundamental so the 'effective fundamental' freq range of the G string is double this - ie. from 196Hz (open) to 784Hz (2 octave). Slap bang in the scoop.

The G string does of course generate other higher harmonics but these will sound thinner and weedier than the fundamental. 

Mind the scoop!

 

+1

[mikeswals]

I agree with Dr T and ikay. Its the way people eq their amps. I've been playing dozens of Musicmans for decades and never had a weak G on any of them. 

 

It goes beyond only the StingRay model that I've seen folks post that they had an issue; they said that about the SR5, and the US Sterling, ive also seen people say they has issue with the the G on dual pickup Musicmans. Well, it can't be all of them, its just that the MM voice doesnt work with certain eq settings.

Edited August 17, 2020 by mikeswals

[acidbass]

Why can't they change the string spacing on the pickup pole pieces, if this has been an issue since the 70s?  Seems the design can be improved upon.

[ikay]

52 minutes ago, acidbass said:

Why can't they change the string spacing on the pickup pole pieces, if this has been an issue since the 70s?  Seems the design can be improved upon.

They have changed the pole spacing on the new Stingray Specials. The pole pieces now line up with the strings. This should help rectify the G string issue as the response of an off-axis string is slightly 'thinner'.

Edited August 17, 2020 by ikay

[acidbass]

2 minutes ago, ikay said:

They have changed the pole spacing on the new Stingray Specials. The pole pieces now line up with the strings. This will help the G string as well as the response of an off-axis string is slightly less full bodied which aggravates the weak G issue.

Seems this only extends to the 4 string Specials and not the 5's, disappointingly.

[Woodinblack]

18 minutes ago, ikay said:

They have changed the pole spacing on the new Stingray Specials. The pole pieces now line up with the strings. This should help rectify the G string issue as the response of an off-axis string is slightly 'thinner'.

I think too much weight can be given to whether a string is over the centre of a pole piece. I doubt it would be possible (all other things being equal) to measure any difference between the output of the G string in either of those string positions. I think the second is better, but only asthetically.

[acidbass]

11 minutes ago, Woodinblack said:

I think too much weight can be given to whether a string is over the centre of a pole piece. I doubt it would be possible (all other things being equal) to measure any difference between the output of the G string in either of those string positions. I think the second is better, but only asthetically.

I do believe things like this make a difference sonically, but aesthetics are a major consideration also for me when buying a bass.

[mcnach]

3 minutes ago, acidbass said:

I do believe things like this make a difference sonically, but aesthetics are a major consideration also for me when buying a bass.

 

I'm not sure, personally: when I bend strings, I have to bend really far before I notice a change in output (shrug).

 

I haven't noticed a weak G myself, but with such widely reported 'complaints', I can't simply dismiss them. But I have no idea what the issue really is, let alone a cure.

[acidbass]

56 minutes ago, mcnach said:

I'm not sure, personally: when I bend strings, I have to bend really far before I notice a change in output (shrug).

For me, the change is the way the string vibrates.  If it's positioned directly over an exposed pole piece, there is surely a certain amount of magnetic pull, whereas if it's off centre (or in the case of J and P basses, not over a pole piece at all), the pull will be less.  I'm no engineer, but this could certainly affect sustain or tone.

Edited August 17, 2020 by acidbass

[Woodinblack]

1 minute ago, acidbass said:

For me, the change is the way the string vibrates.  If it's positioned directly over an exposed pole piece, there is surely a certain amount of magnetic pull, whereas if it's off centre (or in the case of J and P basses, not over a pole piece at all), the pull will be less.  I'm no engineer, but this could certainly affect sustain or tone.

Certainly if it was off the polepiece it could affect sustain and tone (both would be technically improved, but not by so much you are going to notice), but there is no way the vibration of that string in that picture is going to move the string away from that pole piece. For that to happen the primary of that string (ie, centre) would have to be moving into the neck

[acidbass]

2 minutes ago, Woodinblack said:

Certainly if it was off the polepiece it could affect sustain and tone (both would be technically improved, but not by so much you are going to notice), but there is no way the vibration of that string in that picture is going to move the string away from that pole piece. For that to happen the primary of that string (ie, centre) would have to be moving into the neck

Yeah that photo is not the worst example, but I have seen Stingrays where the string is barely in line with the pole piece at all, maybe only fractions of a millimetre.  Seems strange to me that a variable that could be fixed so simply by manufacturers is often wildly different, even on basses of the same model (see Fender Geddy Lee!)

[ebenezer]

Can you buy the new pickup from musicman and is the cover the standard size?