musicman stingray...weak G...

[BassYerbouti]

Just stumbled on this topic after years of thinking 'it's my hearing that's going' or it's a 'weak G' or 'my amp is playing up' because the G comes and goes. It turns out that I've been backing off the mid's too much on the Stingray all along. Switching between P bass and Stingray doesn't help and of course twiddling with all the knobs on the amp and guitars without remembering where I like them. I think I will put a couple of stickers on the amp once I've worked out where the sweet spots are for my basses. Thanks everyone. 

[Guest]

On the promo video for GHS Balanced Nickels they say that most G strings have just one cover, with 2 for the D and A, and 3 for the E. The Balanced Nickels have 2 wraps for all 4 strings. I wonder how they would do on any bass where the G string underwhelms

[Jack]

1 hour ago, Ricky Rioli said:

On the promo video for GHS Balanced Nickels they say that most G strings have just one cover, with 2 for the D and A, and 3 for the E. The Balanced Nickels have 2 wraps for all 4 strings. I wonder how they would do on any bass where the G string underwhelms

Interesting as I play the D'addario balanced nickels (I hate non-bt strings) so I'll definitely try a set of the GHS next time. Thanks for the tip.

[Bird5]

This chat has facinated me.  I've been playing in bands and doing sessions for over 50 years now and much I've what I have to say comes from experience.  Trust me - I made these mistakes myself in the early days!

 

I have a couple of Stingrays - a 3-band EB c. 2010 and a USA Music Man SUB.  I have no issues with the 3-band.  Everything is set flat and I sometimes boost the mid and cut the treble by a tad to suit the room (guided by my FOH engineer).  I often get get good feedback from engineers and punters about my tone.  The 2-band SUB is a fretless and if you boost both treble and bass fully, the G not only is quieter but also has far less top end 'ping' than all of the other strings.  That, as has been correctly identified by others here, is an EQ issue brought about in my opinion, by inexperience or, in the best sense of the word, ignorance.  I don't wish to be rude to people here, but is is very common for bass players to go for a sound that by itself is wonderful, but just doesn't work in the mix.  Typically, this is a very fat bassy sound or (as in the case of Stingrays) maxed out bass and treble.  Sounds great by itself but otherwise almost unuseable.  Go listen to any pub band and you'll probably experience what I'm talking about  (not forgetting the guitarist with the maxed out 4x12 Marshall setup.!)  It is when you set the 2-band like this that the G weakens.  As has heen highlighted here in the original Stingray instructions, the 2-band controls should be set at 50% and tweaked to suit - not maxed out.  Remember that Leo developed the original pre-amp to have a specific sound - not to have a massively wide sonic spectrum.  In addition to the Rays, I have many basses (P round and flat, PJ, 4001, Hofner Club, verious shorties) and each has it's place depending on the session / gig, but for the vast majority of situations, tne engineers are universal in asking for the Rays 'SET FLAT PLEASE!' or maybe with some bass boost.

 

The bottom line is if you don't like the sound of a Stingray set flat or thereabouts and want something that sounds like John Entwistle's Status Buzzard, sell the Ray and get yourself a Buzzard.

[acidbass]

7 hours ago, Bird5 said:

As has heen highlighted here in the original Stingray instructions, the 2-band controls should be set at 50% and tweaked to suit - not maxed out.

Do the controls have a centre detent for flat?

[mep]

My 2 band Ray doesn't. 

[Doctor J]

No. The bass control is boost only, it's only flat when turned all the way down. Anything above that is boosting the low frequencies. The treble is cut and boost, flat is somewhere in the middle of the travel. The thing people do with the 2-band model, where they turn all the knobs up full, is why the G disappears, it's not the pickup, never has been.

[Doctor J]

The 3-band is bass, mid, treble cut and boost and has detents.

[Cosmo Valdemar]

8 hours ago, Bird5 said:

The bottom line is if you don't like the sound of a Stingray set flat or thereabouts and want something that sounds like John Entwistle's Status Buzzard, sell the Ray and get yourself a Buzzard.

Good luck with that...

[pineweasel]

1 hour ago, Doctor J said:

No. The bass control is boost only, it's only flat when turned all the way down. Anything above that is boosting the low frequencies. The treble is cut and boost, flat is somewhere in the middle of the travel. The thing people do with the 2-band model, where they turn all the knobs up full, is why the G disappears, it's not the pickup, never has been.

The 2 band is in fact boost and cut for both treble and bass, as described in the manual

 

Edited July 22, 2023 by pineweasel

[Doctor J]

Not according to anyone who understands and makes clones of it, like Carey Nordstrand 😉

 

"The 2B-MM preamp is a faithful reproduction of the original 2-band Music Man ® preamp.

Like the original Music Man preamp, the bass control is boost only, and while the treble control is boost and cut, it does not have a center detent."

[Misdee]

Whatever the cause, there is definitely a problem of  an apparently weaker G string  sound on a lot of Stingray basses. It's worse on some than others, that's for sure, and I don't doubt that the settings on the bass EQ and amp make a difference to how noticeable it is. It's difficult to define because the problem of perceived weakness on the G string is not just to do with volume but, crucially, also how much  fundamental there is in the notes played on that string. 

 

 Many years ago I had an active bass (not a Stingray) that had a similar problem, but with the E string and it drove me crazy. No matter how much you adjusted the pickup to compensate with volume it still didn't sound constant with the other three strings. The problem was the difference in fundamental harmonic in that E string, Never could sort it out so I ended up selling the bass and buying something else I didn't like.

 

Interestingly enough, from  personal experience the EBMM Bongo, Reflex and the new Stingray Special do not exhibit this problem with the G string, no matter how you EQ them. That emphasizes the problem with some Stingrays.

 

I am interested to find a definitive answer to whether the two band EQ is cut and boost or boost only on the bass.  According to EBMM, both are cut and boost. But is the "flat" position  where a centre detent would be actually flat or is the bass actually still  boosted to give a residually bottom-heavy tone, if you see what I mean? 

 

 

Edited July 23, 2023 by Misdee

[pineweasel]

1 hour ago, Misdee said:

I am interested to find a definitive answer to whether the two band EQ is cut and boost or boost only on the bass.  According to EBMM, both are cut and boost. But is the "flat" position  where a centre detent would be actually flat or is the bass actually still  boosted to give a residually bottom-heavy tone, if you see what I mean? 

I suspect the answer is that Music Man voiced the bass as a whole system of pickup plus preamp, and consider the “flat” setting to be 50% on both controls. I bet the output of the pickup alone is lower in the bass frequencies, and the preamp does indeed only boost. 

[Woodinblack]

The original two band EQ has 'by default', ie, in the centre position, quite a heavy treble boost, as I assume they were going for a bright 'not P bass' sort of sound to emphasise the modern style of the bass. The bass boost does seem from the circuit to mostly boost, although there is a little cut baked in, so if it isn't boosting, there is a little cut. 

Either way, the EQ of the bass is entirely irrelevant and has nothing to do with a weak string . The weak g string thing is a hardware issue, it would sound even acoustically. Its more something to do with that string vibrating and the neck / headstock / body / scale or whatever - pretty sure you would never be able to eq your way out of it, although you could probably make it better.

[Misdee]

  Wow, this is getting complicated.

 

It's a lot easier(although more expensive) just to get a Stingray Special and imagine it's an old one! Sounds great, feels great,plays great, no weak G string and it doesn't weigh a ton.

Edited July 23, 2023 by Misdee

[Piers_Williamson]

As an owner of a 1980 PEB Stingray I've found this thread really interesting.  To add a niche comment, the mis-alignment on mine is on the E string, not the G String (which is perfectly aligned).  They must have had one jig for the positioning of the pick-up/bridge.  This hasn't stopped me experimenting with the relative height of the G string (using the adjustment screws, not mucking about with the pole pieces.  IT sounds pretty even to me, but the bottom end response of the E String is pretty full on at all times.

[acidbass]

12 hours ago, Misdee said:

the new Stingray Special do not exhibit this problem with the G string

EBMM finally fixed the pickup alignment with the Specials, after over 40 years of a poor design. The current Rays are by far the best EBMM have made for this reason.

[Cliff Edge]

On 23/07/2023 at 21:19, acidbass said:

EBMM finally fixed the pickup alignment with the Specials, after over 40 years of a poor design. The current Rays are by far the best EBMM have made for this reason.

 

I'm a bit late to this party but regarding pickup alignment, having recently acquired a 2006 4HH I noticed string alignment isn't perfect over both pickups. So I went online for images of similar instruments just to satisfy my curiosity. And in the majority of images, even up to the latest specials, it's quite unusual to find any with perfect alignment. Most are just like mine with the E and G strings slightly off. More so on the neck pickup. I have to say though it doesn't seem to have any impact on the sound.

[Chopthebass]

I’ve played many new 5 string Stingrays and a few had string alignment issues, G too close to the edge. And the old trick of loosening neck bolts and pulling the neck didn’t work as there was zero movement in the neck pocket. 
Not an issue with 4 stringers.